Kirsten Hitchcock: Ages and Stages
In this episode, Jeremy sits down with Kirsten Hitchcock to explore one of the most overlooked—but critical—topics in kids ministry: understanding ages and stages.
From cognitive development to spiritual formation, Kirsten shares how kids actually learn over time—and why that should shape everything from your teaching to your environments. Together, they unpack what it looks like to distill truth without diluting it, why “God is” statements matter more than behavior-focused lessons, and how to build a discipleship strategy that grows with kids instead of overwhelming them.
You’ll also hear an honest conversation about what really matters most in ministry (hint: it’s not your building), how to think about curriculum and spiritual growth roadmaps, and why relationships will always outperform aesthetics.
Whether you’re leading in a large church or a small, set-up-and-teardown environment, this episode will help you rethink how you disciple kids in a way that’s both practical and deeply intentional.
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Transcript:
KIDMIN U Team (00:00)
Well, Kirsten, welcome to the podcast.
Kirsten Hitchcock (00:00)
⁓
thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here, Jeremy. was good.
KIDMIN U Team (00:05)
Me
too. Okay, so for ⁓ people who don't know Kirsten, Kirsten's incredible. She's been in Kids Mystery forever and she does a million different things. She'll tell you about that in a moment. But I wanna tell people how I met you because this is actually years ago. Yeah, I don't know. Okay, so you still remember it. I was just like a little young lad at the time. But years ago, I won't say how many years because it will age us, but years ago I was doing an internship at Willow Creek.
Kirsten Hitchcock (00:18)
This is a crazy story. This is crazy. Yeah.
⁓
Good luck.
KIDMIN U Team (00:35)
specifically at their downtown Chicago campus. I wanted to get experience in a church setting that was different than kind of what I grew up in. I grew up in like classic suburban church, know, lots of young families, whatever. And I thought if I go and I experienced like urban ministry in downtown Chicago, that that would be a really cool learning experience. And it was, and obviously Willow Creek has been a big part of just like my early journey, like stepping into kids ministry and
Kirsten Hitchcock (00:59)
Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (01:04)
⁓ Has always had a huge place in my heart. So while I was there I was not content for our Sunday experience at the downtown campus
Kirsten Hitchcock (01:10)
Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (01:12)
We didn't have anything midweek So what I would do I would drive up to the main campus in South Barrington and I just volunteer on Wednesday nights in the kids ministry because I just wanted to see as Much as I could and when I got there, you'll never guess who my team leader was It was Kirsten. Kirsten was the one who was onboarding me
Kirsten Hitchcock (01:28)
It was me. No,
KIDMIN U Team (01:30)
She taught me everything I know in ministry. It's all because of Kirsten.
Kirsten Hitchcock (01:34)
no, that was I guess that the fact that we stayed connected from the
the years that have spanned that we're apparently not naming because it's gonna make us feel old. No, it makes it we're seasoned Jeremy. That's what it means. We're not seasoned. We're experienced. But yeah, still remember. Yep, I still remember you're coming and telling me, hey, I'll be here all summer and to a ministry leader in the summer that is like
KIDMIN U Team (01:47)
Definitely not, yeah.
Yes, experienced.
Yep.
Hahaha!
Kirsten Hitchcock (02:05)
⁓ is it Christmas? Is this a gift? Because this person just said they're gonna be here every week for the entire summer. Yes, yes, stay. What do I need to do to keep you? Yeah, lots of fun.
KIDMIN U Team (02:16)
Yeah, it was awesome. I loved it.
Yeah, it's funny because like, yeah, now, like looking back, like at my kids ministry career and all that stuff, I wish people would have done that. I wish people would have just been like, hey, like you have my summer. What do you, what do you want me to do? That would be incredible. We need more people looking like that. And if you're a kids mystery leader watching, this is maybe a lesson learned. Be the type of volunteer you wish to have. It starts with you. All right. So
Kirsten Hitchcock (02:38)
Yeah. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (02:42)
Anyway, we're talking about my origin a little bit, but I would actually love to talk about how you got started in kids ministry. So you're doing some incredible things right now. We'll probably talk about that throughout the podcast, but I want you to go all the way back to the beginning and tell us a little bit about how you got started in kids ministry.
Kirsten Hitchcock (03:01)
Yeah. So I, this, I mean, I'll tell you, I've been in children's ministry now for 15 years. Doesn't feel like I've been in it that long, but, it all started, my journey started at Willow as well. So, ⁓ I needed an internship and as part of my master's program, I did my, I did my studies at Wheaton College graduate school here in suburb of Chicago, Wheaton, Illinois.
And when I was there, because I didn't have any practical ministry experience, I didn't do my undergrad in ministry. I did my undergrad in music. And so I didn't have the ministry experience I needed for ⁓ my spiritual formation degree. And they said, Kirsten, you'd be the perfect candidate for an internship. And I said, great. They're like, now go find one. ⁓ okay. Well, where do you go find one? Like, okay. And.
I knew at that moment, I just felt it deep within me that I was supposed to work with children of divorce and grief. I just, it happened in a class. I was in that class and some in our, I think we had a guest speaker that day, a guest lecturer. And he said, your greatest wound is going to be your greatest blessing. And it just so happened that my greatest wound was the fallout of my parents' divorce and what that did to me and what it did to my family.
yet how God redeems all of that and the hope that I had for what he was going to do and how he redeemed me through that process. So I became a Christ follower during that season of my life. And I was like, I want to help kids know that they're not alone. I want to help kids know that Jesus is with them, even in the midst of these things that don't feel that they can't recognize the holiness of the moment. They only can see the pain.
And to be able to walk through their pain with them and to name it and to be able to say that it's not their fault. I think that's one of the guilt driven things, especially with children of divorce and grief, is that somehow that idea of what did I contribute to this when you were only the child in the situation. So having gone through that myself, I was like, ⁓ I really want to do that. No, Jeremy.
Do you think there's many ministries like that? No. So, Kirsten had this dream of like, okay, this. so, I had this. So, I knew I had to find an internship. That is really what I wanted to do. I had no idea where to start. I didn't know what to do. I had no idea what Willow Creek was. I didn't know because I didn't grow up evangelical. ⁓ So, I just didn't know what Willow Creek was. But I knew that I, for another class,
It's always class assignments. Class assignments will get me to do things that I wouldn't normally do. I don't know if that ever happened to you, but ended up at Willow for an observation. I was told that I needed to go observe in three different contexts. I had no context for mega church. So I was like, sure, I'll go there. So I went there with a friend. We came and similar to how you just landed, you were like, I'm here. I'm ready to serve. I'm like, I'm here. have no idea what you guys do. Let me see everything.
KIDMIN U Team (05:50)
Ha ha.
Ha ha
ha.
Kirsten Hitchcock (06:14)
So I showed up ⁓ as a visitor and I ended up in the three year old room and watching a room of a hundred and twenty three year old with volunteers was just kind of like what, what is happening in front of me? And it wasn't chaotic. Like it didn't feel chaotic. You were just like, what is happening? Why are they're talking in small groups? what is so please, this is how early I was. I had no concept for like what children's ministry structure should be.
Like I didn't have any of that. I just knew Sunday school. So in this room, I'm watching this transpire and kind of in awe of what I'm seeing. And the programmer at the time just came over and talked to me. The programmer was the person doing the teaching is what that was her title at the time. And she came over and she said, so tell me what is what, what do you feel like God is asking you to do? And I was like, I'm supposed to work with children of divorce. Like that is what I'm supposed to do. And I told her this and she said,
We have a ministry. I was like, what? There's an, oh my goodness. I was like, tell me all about it. And she told me about it. It was called Oasis at the time. And when she shared that with me, I was like, this is why I was supposed to come here. So then that week got emailed. The director said, Hey, basically, can you take me on as an intern? You'll get me for 20 hours a week. You, you, I, you can pay me if you want to, but I have to do it so you can do it for free. I will drive out.
KIDMIN U Team (07:16)
You
Kirsten Hitchcock (07:42)
Within two weeks, I met with the director, shared with her my dream, shared with her my qualifications, sharing. I could sign the statement of faith, I could do all these things. So within two weeks, I was signed on as an intern and I was like, I've arrived, Jeremy, I've arrived. So ⁓ that's where it all began was I was in children's divorce care and grief support for children and teens. So that's where started my ministry work or the ministry work that I...
KIDMIN U Team (07:58)
Hahaha!
Kirsten Hitchcock (08:11)
Yeah, that really began ⁓ just where my heart is for kids. And then that transition, I took over the ministry about eight months, think six to eight months later, I became the interim director. And then ⁓ through that, I was at Willow for, I was on staff ⁓ for eight years and I did a series of things. So when Jeremy met me, that was like my third role at Willow at that point, ⁓ the third ministry, ⁓ but I had taken over all midweek.
care. So that meant divorce care for teens, teens and students that make Greece support that met a wanna that meant like there were several different categories that then we ran everything on Wednesday, loved, loved that season of ministry, learned so much. Since then, I've transitioned and I am now in publishing. ⁓ So I've worked I worked at a wanna and then I now work at David C. Cook, and I work ⁓ on children's discipleship resources. So I lead a team of ⁓
editors, ⁓ creating things for the church. And I'm also a children's pastor at a local congregation here in the Chicago area called the practice church. And I absolutely love it. can't imagine. do, I do children's ministry because it is the heartbeat of what I love. And I do it on top of a full-time job. That's how much I really love it is I can't imagine not doing it. So that's where I am today.
KIDMIN U Team (09:33)
Ha
Yeah, you guys can probably tell why I wanted to have her on this podcast and talk about this topic because the main thing we want to talk about today is ages and stages. Really this idea of as kids grow, how does our approach grow with them? I'm curious, maybe this is a good starting point. ⁓ lot of what we're going to talk about is kind of like childhood development. What are the unique stages? Some might call them phases of ministry.
Kirsten Hitchcock (09:42)
you
KIDMIN U Team (10:03)
Why is it so important in your mind for a kids mystery leader to at least be somewhat well-versed in childhood development?
Kirsten Hitchcock (10:10)
Yeah, so one of the main reasons I think that child development is so important and to understand it
is because there are things that children's brain development, their cognitive development, they can't comprehend certain concepts at certain ages. So ⁓ they can't understand ⁓ concepts of evil, concepts of ⁓ even death and things of that nature. ⁓
you have to understand that they only understand parts of that as they grow. And so I think I think of the topics that the Bible has a lot in it. There's also there's a lot of scriptures that you're like, think about it is it is God's word, it is important for his people. And it's important to see it in the context of the whole story. Because when you don't have the whole story,
It can feel very compartmentalized of who God is. And that can really cause, I think, turmoil on people to think like God is only one way. Where you see the grandeur of God's, of his great story and what he does. ⁓ When you see the whole story of scripture, right? So I bring that in because I think that affects, that it goes hand in hand with development. Like you need to continue to help them to see the context of something as you're telling them maybe a hard truth.
KIDMIN U Team (11:22)
Hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (11:42)
or telling them a concept about God. So I think it's about, ⁓ you have to think about how children learn. So child development helps you know how children learn. We're not talking about learning styles, not just kinesthetic learners, cognitive learners. We're not just talking about that, but we're talking about how they learn over time. You have to know how you can build, right? How you can start with a simple concept, which this isn't simple.
God is loving. Love is a very hard concept to understand, but for them to know that God loves them, but then you have to build on, God loves you even in hard times. A three-year-old is not, probably not fully gonna comprehend in hard times, but they will as they continue to hear that truth of God loves them, even when God loves you.
KIDMIN U Team (12:14)
Ha
Kirsten Hitchcock (12:36)
all the time, like trying to help them understand that concept as they grow. So it's building upon that. It's also some people call, ⁓ I've heard it set. I've heard a theory, a learning theory of spiral learning. So really this idea of you kind of re you, ⁓ now I'm losing my words.
which is not helpful on the podcast. ⁓ It's when you come back, you're coming back to a concept over and over again. So the spiral learning of like, you keep coming, you're coming back to it, you're coming back to it, and you're building upon it. ⁓ And so to think about, ⁓ well, when you think about your youngest, Jeremy, you're about to have another youngest, but you're only right now, right?
KIDMIN U Team (12:59)
Ha ha!
Kirsten Hitchcock (13:19)
When you think about her, you think about what you hope for her to know about God. There's a reason you're choosing ⁓ to say certain prayers over her. There's a reason you're saying certain blessings over her. There's reasons to why you're helping her journey towards God through the scriptures you share, through the prayers you say, through the songs you sing.
of what she's learning and internalizing about who God is and what it means, who God is to her. Right? So you can't expect kids to just be able to take these very complex concepts and just be like, well, this is truth, because we know that the Bible is truth. Be like, yes, and they don't know who you're talking about. So you have to give them opportunities to learn.
KIDMIN U Team (14:07)
you
Kirsten Hitchcock (14:15)
I distill down truth, not simplify it, not simplify it where you take out the meaning, where you simplify it and make it mean something else. We're talking about how do you distill down truth so that it meets them where they're at in their cognitive development. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (14:30)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I
mean, I think kids ministry people often I hear language kind of like building blocks, you know, same idea of, you know, here's the foundation, God is love, whatever. But there's a lot that you can stack on top of that, to your point. And I love the idea of a spiral thing. I don't know that I had heard that before. But I can picture it in my mind of just like, yeah, every time you get to that point in the cycle, you're another layer, like further almost. ⁓
Kirsten Hitchcock (14:36)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.
KIDMIN U Team (14:56)
I love that. That actually is a very constructive way to kind of think about how we might be able to approach ⁓ our teaching. Okay, so in this conversation, we're probably going to hit on a number of things. We'll probably talk about, you know, the way that we teach, maybe the way that our lessons are structured. I'd also love to talk about even environments, like how, like when a three year old walks into a room, what matters to their environment that might be different than a fourth grader who walks into theirs, right?
Kirsten Hitchcock (14:57)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (15:26)
All of these things go into creating a unique setting that's built specifically for those age ranges. Okay, so I'm curious what you're seeing right now, like some shifts that churches are making to make
things a little bit more age appropriate, right? What are you seeing people doing that's working really well to actually meet these kids really specifically in certain age groups?
Kirsten Hitchcock (15:52)
Yeah, so I'll just say not every church has the ability to have ages split out, right? So I'm currently in context that we were moving towards splitting out our...
KIDMIN U Team (16:00)
Yeah, totally.
Kirsten Hitchcock (16:07)
nursery and then our pre-k first grade, second grade, and then our third to fifth grade. But right now I have five through age 12 all in one room together. That's just my reality. That's because of the size of my church, the size of our ministry, and there is nothing wrong with that. So the first thing I want to say is, hey, you work within your context, right? So the things I'm seeing with churches and I'm like, how do, how are you building? I mean, one of the key things is how you build relationships with kids is really important. So through your volunteers.
and yourself, like how are you making sure that each child is known and seen and they feel that they belong? I think that's the first thing. yeah, aesthetics play a part of that, but I think what's most important is the fact that do you have a welcoming environment that they know that they have a place there, right? And I think that starts with your people. And I think that's the thing you, in some ways, that's the thing you have control over. You don't have control over how many people show up on a Sunday. You just don't. You can think you do.
KIDMIN U Team (16:50)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (17:05)
But you don't. And that's where the Holy Spirit does his work, right? That's the Holy Spirit. Here are the people that are in front of me, and that's who I get to serve today, and to see it as an opportunity of how you get to extend love and grace to people. I think to me, that is like the shift that I'm seeing with people is I'm like, people are noticing like, hey, that connection really matters. Right?
that you can make your space look awesome. You can make your space look like the play place at McDonald's or at these, you know, you can do all these aesthetically pleasing things. But if it means that kids are separating themselves from everybody else, how do they know that they can come back together? It all of a sudden becomes these independent opportunities. And you're like, no, I want us to be communal. So I'm seeing more and more people trying to figure out those communal aspects of ⁓
When a child comes in a room, this is especially true in preschool. think preschool, there's not usually many individual activities that you come to a table and you're usually with a group of people. You know, like these PlayStation ideas that you all come together and you're doing a coloring sheet, you all come together and you have a sensory bin and you have four to six kids doing it. Like you are building in a communal group activity. And I think that's really important because the way a child feels like they belong is can I be with my peers? Right?
KIDMIN U Team (18:25)
Hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (18:32)
I think what's tricky is as children get older, they want to be more independent. They have different interests. have, they obviously have different needs. But I think the one thing that is consistent is they want to be known and a part of a group. And that doesn't, no matter, like that doesn't change. It shifts on how it, how your approach usually happens. Right. But, I would.
KIDMIN U Team (18:48)
Hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (18:58)
I would make sure that those communal opportunities continue. So you call them PlayStations and Pre-K, but what are you doing when your pre-teens first arrive? Are you doing like, hey, come over here, we're playing this or come over here and we're doing, do you have like these group options versus if you and when I've seen it at many churches, like, hey, come over here and play this one, play this crane game or just play air hockey with me and one other kid. And it's like,
Yeah, you get that huddle of people watching stuff, but they're like waiting for their turn. Like that's the whole point of why they're, it's not that they're really enjoying watching you do it. It's they're like, I'm just waiting for my turn to play the game. And you're like, well, what could it look like if you could do something that involved more people that really brought that in? So I've been really curious about that, especially having shifted from a very large church to a small church of, well,
KIDMIN U Team (19:36)
Ha
Hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (19:53)
I have no, we set up Teardown every week and I don't have, we meet in a break room. Let's talk about how Pearson doesn't have aesthetics. Okay, it's just the reality of I don't have that, but that doesn't make it any less meaningful because my kids only care at the fact that they're with the other kids. I think that shows me something that communicates something to me of where is our value? Our value is in us.
KIDMIN U Team (20:01)
Hahaha
Kirsten Hitchcock (20:20)
It's in us being together. So if we can remember that, think that's really, to me is really important.
KIDMIN U Team (20:27)
Yeah, I love that that you said that. And it's interesting because I think both of us have a pretty similar background in that we probably our starting point was really large churches, know, Willow, probably another scale. when you start with that, it actually is kind of hard to imagine what it's like for the average church out there. I mean, what do they say? 98 % of churches are 200 or less. Like that's that's normal. It's normal for a church to be that size. And it's actually weird for a church to be larger than that. And I think what's cool is
Kirsten Hitchcock (20:51)
Yep.
KIDMIN U Team (20:57)
now you're in an environment that's totally different. It's forcing you to maybe look at things in a different way. And for me, most recently, I was working with a church plant. It's also, you I got there is about 300 people over a few years now we're around like 600. But like, still, that's very different than like 6000 or more, which was like, I mean, multiple environments I was at, like that was like,
Kirsten Hitchcock (21:06)
We're restarted. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (21:18)
the average or more. And so I love that you shared relationships too, because I think that covers over
a lot of different things, right? We're not always going to be experts on every single age level. We're not always going to have an environment that looks like Disneyland. We're not always going to have fill in the blank. What we can do though, is connect with people and be really relational. You know, in one of our, so this is part of our KIDMIN U network. This podcast is part of what we do within KIDMIN U. And this is one topic. We've got like three modules that all like kind of like
Kirsten Hitchcock (21:35)
Okay. ⁓
KIDMIN U Team (21:52)
interact with each other. Like we've got 12 total, but we've got three, one on ages and stages, one on curriculum, and one on spaces and places. And they all
Kirsten Hitchcock (22:01)
It's true, it's true, it's
KIDMIN U Team (22:01)
blend together because the common thread is how do you design things for a unique age group? How do you make it cohesive? ⁓ And it's funny, there's just a little bit of overlap here. I'm kind of like even forgetting like where I'm going with some of this because there's so many branches that we can go. But I think
Kirsten Hitchcock (22:19)
true.
KIDMIN U Team (22:21)
Yeah,
I think the bottom line though is like you don't have to crush it or be the best in every single one of those areas. What you can major in is relationships. one of those, okay, this is what I was gonna say, brought it all the way back, all the way full circle. One of the things that we kind of played with in one of our modules was this idea of what does your building look like? And there are plenty of people who say that your building should look like Disneyland. Like if you wanna minister to kids,
Kirsten Hitchcock (22:35)
There we go.
KIDMIN U Team (22:47)
and you want it to be exciting and fun and excellent, then it's gotta look like Disneyland. And I understand the heart, but I've always kind of felt like it almost sets up a lot of average churches to fail. And not even just average, it's like 99 % of churches are not gonna be able to afford to be able to create Disneyland.
Kirsten Hitchcock (22:49)
Or not that they're going to fail,
they're going to feel like, I can't do that. So I am a failure.
KIDMIN U Team (23:08)
100%. Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (23:09)
Right? Like, it's more of that feeling because part of it is the ministry that you serve in, the ministry that's been given to you, it's not yours, it's God's, right? So like the moment that you think it's a possession of yours, you're like, that's the moment that you've lost. so I catch myself often like my ministry, I'm like, no, the ministry gets a steward. Like I have to really think about it because it's only what...
KIDMIN U Team (23:19)
Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (23:33)
I can do all the preparation. do all that you can, and then ultimately you have to be open-handed and realize that this isn't mine. And what can I do to serve those around me? And you have to look realistically at who is in your midst. If who's in your midst is a hundred people, then those are the hundred you're gonna serve. And you're gonna hear all of these, I don't know, it's growth.
KIDMIN U Team (23:48)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (24:00)
I heard recently, and this really bothered me, and so this is gonna be an unpopular opinion, if you're not growing, you're not thriving. And that really bothered me. Because my church is thriving. They're growing, the people in it are growing. I may not have more people in it, but my goodness, are we becoming the kingdom people that we're being invited into? Absolutely. You know, I'm sorry, I get a little emotional about it.
And of course this is wasn't your topic. so, but I say that because maybe someone's listening right now that you're taking KIDMIN U you're doing this and you're feeling like, great. The setting I'm in, can't make it look like that. I can't do this. I can't do that. And I just want to tell you that you're in the exact right place and where you are and that in the context you're in, you're there for a reason.
I ask you to seek out God and stop listening to all of these voices of what it should be. And just say, take this and say, how could we're saying all of these things to try and support you to open you up to like, what does God have for what is before you? I'm not going to tell you it needs to look a certain way. I'm just going to tell you, I'm like, here's my experience here. Here's where I, what I've learned over time. So Jeremy, you and I both started.
very large environments. And now it's kind of, I like it's kind of comical that I'm in such a small one. And I love it. Because the relationships, I think about the connections I get to make. And I'm not worried. I'm not worried about numbers anymore. I there's a freedom in that, but I'm not worried. I'm concerned. I'm concerned about the people in our congregation, I want to make sure that they are they growing closer to Jesus.
KIDMIN U Team (25:30)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (25:51)
Do they have Jesus now? Are they growing closer to Jesus? And those are my metrics. And so when you think about that, I feel like that's freedom. That's just, yeah. So my unpopular opinion is if you're not growing, you're not thriving, I disagree.
KIDMIN U Team (26:07)
Yeah. No, I think there, I'm so glad that you shared that. Thank you for going there. I think there is a, it's almost like hustle culture that's extended into ministry. Like maybe we might call it growth culture, where there's an obsession with growing numerically, that if your church isn't growing numerically, then you're not doing something right. ⁓ And that if you are crushing it, that the one way you'll see that is by numerical growth.
Which, listen, that is often a byproduct of health and thriving and whatever, but it's not the only thing that comes from it, right? And there might be times where you're crushing it and you have a healthy ministry and you are being faithful and the growth may not come immediately. I mean, I can't tell you how many church leaders I've seen where it's like church has been serving faithfully for years, sometimes decades. ⁓
Kirsten Hitchcock (26:39)
Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (27:02)
And you could argue their greatest ministry happened when they had 150 people. And then 10 years later, something happened and they grew a bunch. It's not like they just suddenly started being better at ministry or they're more faithful or any of that. Sometimes God like waters things when and where he wants to, and we can't always control that. So I think it's helpful to have that. listen, I think this is like a
Kirsten Hitchcock (27:20)
Mm. Bye.
KIDMIN U Team (27:28)
a grain of salt even for the things that I communicate on my platforms because I do want to help people build healthy ministries, healthy churches. I would love to see there be numerical growth eventually, but everything I try and do is trying to help people build a healthy, successful ministry. And that means stewardship. And to your point, like even that idea of recognizing that your ministry will never be your ministry. ⁓
Kirsten Hitchcock (27:35)
Yes. Mm-hmm. ⁓
KIDMIN U Team (27:57)
I remember my thinking changed on this
when I took another job at another church as my first kids pastor job. And before then, I'd grown up in the same church and then I worked there for seven years. And so like your mentality is different when you've only ever been in one place. In fact, to that point, I would have told you that I really believe it's our job to stay in one place our entire career. I actually think there's so much beauty when I see that happening like
Kirsten Hitchcock (28:22)
Yeah,
KIDMIN U Team (28:24)
You were born and raised in this town, maybe even in that church. And you you worked there for a decade or two or
Kirsten Hitchcock (28:24)
there is
Mm-hmm. you
KIDMIN U Team (28:30)
whatever, and that's your ministry. And it was actually really hard for me to leave at first. Like there were a lot of things God had to do in order for me to even be open to that. Honestly, it was so hard because it was so attached. My roots were so deep. My thoughts on ministry and faith and everything all were rooted in the same place. And I remember going.
and taking that other kid's pastor job, it was incredible, but I didn't stay there forever. And so when I left there
is when this changed my thinking so much. It's when I realized that when we are in ministry, like there are people who were there at that church before me and they will be there after me. And it's my job to love them and steward them well and not make it about me. Like if I just make it about me, then I'm not serving them well. And I think
Kirsten Hitchcock (29:11)
Mm. .
KIDMIN U Team (29:22)
when you do take a job somewhere and you don't stay there forever and you eventually leave, it does put a different perspective in play. Like that idea of stewardship becomes way more obvious where you realize, hey, I really hope that what I did during this time, like added value that I said yes to the things that the Lord wanted me to say yes to, and that I wasn't distracted by the things that didn't matter to him. ⁓ Yeah, sorry, that's such a big topic. I'm glad you hit on it.
Kirsten Hitchcock (29:30)
Okay. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (29:52)
because I think
Kirsten Hitchcock (29:52)
I'm like, I know what my topic should
KIDMIN U Team (29:53)
it changes the way you show up for things.
Kirsten Hitchcock (29:55)
be. I think part of it is I feel like this all comes together because of so much of what you're talking about with ages and stages, with how you said it was intersecting with your curriculum choices, which then intersects with like what is happening, your, what did you say, spaces? I think that's how you said it. ⁓
KIDMIN U Team (30:14)
Yeah, places, environments, yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (30:16)
places and environments, think the environment that you create comes back to the people, we talked about in the beginning. So I think part of that, we need to look at it as less about where do we meet and the room that we be in and all of that, that is a part of it. But not every church has the means to have an environment that is... ⁓
crafted specifically with like children's and fun in mind and all of that. I like to say, I'm like, hey, the fun aspect of our church is that you're known here. I know that's not like the fun, like for a kid, they're like, okay, you know, but you start to notice how kids act and their excitement when they're known, there's nothing, there's nothing that compares to it at all. And
KIDMIN U Team (30:57)
you
Kirsten Hitchcock (31:13)
And so to think about like, so honoring where you've been placed and recognizing the, what is within my means right now and still setting like goals and things. I think that's where I would love for people to sit in and possibly wrestle with, because this all comes back to your philosophy of ministry. If you don't have a philosophy of ministry,
you're really gonna kind of like grasp at all of these ideas and try and but jumble it together. And then you're like, that's my plan and be like, okay, hold on. Not all of these have the same goal or ultimate purpose in mind. So what is your ultimate purpose? Like what is your main vision for your ministry? If it's love God, love others, keep it simple. Something that people can actually say. Love God, love others. Then everything you do has to go through that lens.
KIDMIN U Team (31:45)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (32:07)
Is this helping people love God? Is it helping them love others? So then you look at the context of your people. Who are you serving? Who do you want to serve? Who is in your midst that you're going to invite? Because that's also going to affect then your ages and stages model is only going to be like, if you don't have three year olds, you're probably not going to be thinking about the three year olds. You're going to be thinking about, well, who do I have? Right? You're going to be thinking about like, oh, I have a lot of tweens. Like right now I have half of our ministry is tweens. They are a whole.
KIDMIN U Team (32:26)
Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (32:37)
other group of people that I am learning more about, you know? ⁓ And in that beauty, that learning so much about all of the physical changes that are happening with them that are happening at different rates, their identity and what they're trying to be independent, they're trying to figure out who am I? Well, I want them to be an environment that tells them, well, here's the beauty of who God says you are.
So I hope you take that and we look at it in the story of scripture because you're a part of that story. So remind them once again and again and again to remind people of whose they are and who they belong and seeing that in the story of scripture is only going to help them when they hit those different stages. Right? So like if you've been telling them from the very beginning that God loves them and they've been hearing that and they've been seeing that in scripture when they see a new attribute of God that
maybe to them contradicts, they can come back and say, okay, but I know that God is loving because of these parts of scripture. But now when I hear about his justice, how I can now try and figure out like, who can I talk to about that? Like that's gonna be a part of the, that continues to be a part of the ongoing learning for all of us, because I'm gonna be honest, I'm in my late thirties, I'm still struggling.
Or I'm still figuring out like, yeah, what does it mean that God is just? What does that mean? And the fact that you continue to learn that, I think that's a posture that all of us as children's pastors need to take is that, hey, you also don't have all the answers. You don't. And so are you willing to also learn what is God teaching within you as you're learning about ages and stages of kids, as you're learning yourself of like, ⁓ I think I need to teach that differently.
KIDMIN U Team (34:29)
Yeah. I remember one thing that was like how we all have these memories that I think are like very foundational and you don't always get to pick what they are. Sometimes they just really stick with you and have a profound impact. And one of them was ⁓ the pastor of the church I grew up in. His name is Pastor Tom. He had this thing he would say over and over again. He said, what I want you to do, everybody in our church, I want you to take out a piece of paper, like in your own time, sometime this week, I want you to write out what you know to be true about God.
Make your own list. So you could have five things on it. You could have 50 things on it. But he said, build this list. And so that's what I did. I remember I was probably, I don't know, maybe 13, 14 at the time. Like I was still pretty young and I wrote this list. I think there were 26 things on it. I wish I still had the paper. I wish I still had it. I don't know what happened to it, but I wrote down these 26 and his whole thing was life is going to be tough.
Kirsten Hitchcock (34:59)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah! That'd be amazing. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (35:26)
Like there are going to be times where you doubt God, you doubt what's going on. and you're gonna, you're just gonna wonder. And he said, the best thing to do is when you're in a season of health, write down what you know, to be true about God so that you can go back to it in those seasons where you're struggling, when you're tempted, when you're having doubts, ⁓ maybe even when you're insecure. And it was this great foundational thing that I could always come back to. And as I hear you talking about some of these things, as it relates to kids,
Kirsten Hitchcock (35:34)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (35:53)
I think about the same idea in play, like what are those core things that we can teach them to go back to? You know, the core of
Kirsten Hitchcock (35:58)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (36:00)
⁓ a spiritual growth roadmap in my mind, like this plan for how you want to strategically disciple kids in each stage as they grow. The core of that to me is God statements. Like actually, if you were to look at the one that I've used in previous environments, yeah, a hundred percent. And by the way, maybe like short backstory here, I stumbled onto this years ago.
Kirsten Hitchcock (36:01)
Well, yeah. God is. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (36:23)
ago when I visited, I think it was Rock Harbor Church in Costa Mesa. And at the time, yeah, they're incredible. At the time, they were creating a curriculum that is now true. I don't know what the partnership is still like, or if it's now just purely David C. Cook, but it started with Rock Harbor. And so we went to go visit them. Honestly, not even knowing about the curriculum, we just knew that they had cool stuff going on at their church, we were about an hour away. And so we just wanted to go learn. Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (36:27)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, you're very innovative, right? Yeah, they're very
innovative.
KIDMIN U Team (36:52)
Very.
Yeah, they were on the front end of a lot of that. And I remember going and seeing what they did and then seeing the curriculum that they made and I noticed that their main points, their big ideas in each lesson sounded so much different than everything else I was seeing at the time. Everything else was, you should be generous, you should share with others, you should tell the truth. And it was all of these, like, honestly, they're more like application statements than anything else.
Kirsten Hitchcock (37:14)
Yes. Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (37:20)
And that's kind of what you saw in lessons at the time. And true and, and rock Harbor was the first place
I saw where every single week, wasn't about what we do or anything about us. was always centered around who God was. And then the rest of the lesson was really helping you figure out what does that mean for you? But the big idea and the star of the show at all times was God. That was the foundation of everything. And so when I'm teaching kids,
Kirsten Hitchcock (37:34)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (37:48)
There's some stuff I'm working on behind the scenes on this topic that I'm excited when they finally do come out because I'm very, very passionate about it. But for the sake of this conversation, I
Kirsten Hitchcock (37:51)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (37:57)
feel like that's a great place to anchor whatever plan you have for how you want to disciple kids over time. And I think we have similar ideas on this, by the way. I think we've both seen ⁓ versions of a spiritual growth roadmap that are like super specific, like very long, very detailed, very complex. ⁓ Maybe let's start here.
Kirsten Hitchcock (38:01)
Yep. Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (38:18)
What are your thoughts, like your raw, unfiltered, honest thoughts on what it looks like to build a spiritual growth roadmap and like what works and what maybe you see that's not working that we might be able to learn from?
Kirsten Hitchcock (38:31)
Yeah, ⁓ set me up here. I, so I think it's, I think it's just tricky because I think there you run the risk of communicating that this is what it will look like and you can't do that. And so I, your language really matters. If it's, Hey, I want to give you a list of things that you could teach at this age.
KIDMIN U Team (38:46)
Hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (38:56)
and that these are simple concepts you can teach. That is still a roadmap. That's giving you tools, right? To say, okay, in the pre-K ages, I could teach that God is loving. I could teach that he created everything. I could teach these distilled down truths that then could be expanded on as they grow, right? So that's kind of like this approach to spiritual roadmap is like, okay, how can you grow?
what are the ways that they can grow spiritually? And they're asking like, hey, at what ages, where should my kid be at? well, unless you grew up in church from the very beginning, you can't do that. Because I was a junior in high school coming to faith and I had to catch up on 16 years of faith development that I didn't know I didn't have. Do you know?
That is what's tricky about this is you can't treat it like ages and stages. You can't do that You can tell them spiritually here are concepts you could teach but that's about as far as you can go because that's the beauty and the mystery and the wonder of a relationship with God is that no one's relationship is the same and yet God is unchanging like God is Sovereign God is you know
Fill in all your God is statement. It's true for all of us and yet how we experience that and how we learn it and in in the Circumstances that we learn it are all different So I could go to the same church as you Jeremy and have a very different faith walk than you do But we went to the same place. I learned the same things. I was there on the same Sundays you were Like that isn't something we should say as a con or as a negative it is beautiful
KIDMIN U Team (40:24)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (40:43)
because that look at the tapestry of God's family that we're a part of, right? Like we need to help anchor kids to know, like you're a part of the grand family of God, isn't that beautiful? And all of us are learning this in different ways. We're all learning it at different rates. ⁓ So that's why I like to say it's a journey. ⁓ I think by saying that you're
you're giving people permission to say it doesn't have to look like this. This is one example. But I think that's the trigger. I think that's why we don't see you see even in okay, parent Q. I think you're a cute phases from from I think it's now amazing life. The phases. I mean, top notch, like they do it really well. They do it really well.
KIDMIN U Team (41:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (41:35)
There is no spiritual element. I've heard numerous times, like, I wish they just had a spiritual element. I was like, well, I know why they don't. Because it's really hard to because the way they've set it up is here's everything they are experiencing. You can't say that spiritually. You can't. So all of their language, I don't know how you'd say that. Be like, you know, at age 10, your kid might start thinking this. It's like, no, we know cognitively that their brain is doing this.
KIDMIN U Team (41:52)
Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (42:05)
But you can't
KIDMIN U Team (42:05)
Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (42:06)
say they will make a decision for Jesus at age six because cognitively they can. Do you know what I mean? Like that doesn't make any sense. And I believe children hear from God. Okay, another controversial topic. You're probably like, Kirsten, so off topic. ⁓ But I believe it. Okay, your wife's pregnant. Do you believe that your child right now hears your voice?
KIDMIN U Team (42:15)
Mm-hmm.
Come on, go for it. Go there, go there.
Kirsten Hitchcock (42:34)
and would be able to recognize your voice.
KIDMIN U Team (42:36)
Yeah, I would hope so.
Kirsten Hitchcock (42:37)
Okay, so there's evidence out there that that is true. We have people, they're like, listen to music and blah, blah, blah. And then when you hear this music outside the womb, they're gonna recognize it. We hear all of these things. I believe, that's why I believe you need to be praying over your children. You, Jeremy, need to be talking to your baby, blessing them, talking to them, having them hear your voice.
because there's a calmness when they enter this world, they're gonna know their mother's voice and they're gonna know their dad's voice because I mean, they were within the mother for so long, but they hear the reverbing of their voice, their vocal cords, they're hearing everything, right? They're connected. I believe God does that. I believe that God is already, there's spiritual development happening in the womb because you're already doing that with your children. I mean, it's...
You got to check out Center for Faith in Children, Dr. Mimi Larson. She did research in prenatal faith development and it's just go, just do it. And so anyway, that's my, there's a plug there. But I, was fascinating is think about that, that we can be, I think it's about being intentional as children's pastors and as parents to be intentional about the ways that we're teaching our children about God, but not necessarily that we are prescriptive on how they will experience Him. Does that make sense?
KIDMIN U Team (43:36)
you
You
Yeah, 100%.
Kirsten Hitchcock (44:03)
Yeah,
so I think that's where, so my controversial topic is, God speaks to babies in the womb. And I think, but I really think from the very beginning, when we know that he did this together, we see that in the Psalms, we see that when David proclaims that, you're reading that and you're like, okay, well, if he did that, I think from that moment that we continue to hear from God for the rest of our life, it's the question of will we turn toward and hear him or not?
KIDMIN U Team (44:10)
Ha ha ha ha.
Yeah, 100%. Okay, shifting gears a tad. I want to share with you a quote that I heard, and then I'm to pause and I want to hear your response to it. All right, here goes nothing. All scripture is inspired by God, but not all scriptures age appropriate.
Kirsten Hitchcock (44:37)
Okay.
Okay.
⁓ So, okay, my initial reaction is yes and. Okay, appropriate. This is so hard. So, you have to teach it in... Okay, say the quote again. ⁓ For the people in the back, let's say it in the back. What did you just say? Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (44:52)
Hahaha!
Hahaha
Sure, okay, reset, restart.
Yup.
Say it with some juice this time. All scripture is inspired by God, but not all scripture is age appropriate.
Kirsten Hitchcock (45:17)
You there you go.
Mm-hmm.
Yes, and okay, so part of this is I believe you can distill scripture into concepts that children can understand, but I don't think, yeah, I don't think you're gonna teach, you're not gonna teach every story to every age group. Like you can't. ⁓ I think specifically, I think of the sacrifice of Isaac. That's a really hard story. That's a hard story to teach in children's ministry.
KIDMIN U Team (45:41)
Mm-hmm.
Can we pause
there for a second? Okay, so I had never thought about that. I don't know why. Like I've been teaching that story for years and never once even thought, that might be scary for a little child until probably a couple years ago, I had a volunteer and ⁓ you know, it was one of those volunteers who kind of has an opinion on everything sort of. So I didn't know what to make of it. But this specific person was like, hey, I don't think we should be teaching this story in our preschool environment. And at first it was like,
Kirsten Hitchcock (45:55)
I'm
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (46:16)
really, you know, it's the Bible, whatever. And then I looked at it again and I was like, you know what, I think they're right. I think this is actually a really challenging topic. And, you know, for some kids, they may not read into it. They may be fine and maybe it's not a big deal and they'll get it. But even if they do get it, the principle there is way over their head. Like they don't understand
Kirsten Hitchcock (46:36)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (46:38)
really, I think, the core of that passage. And how could they? It's just not built for
young mind that's still developing. Like there's nuance in a story like that. So it's interesting you bring that up because that's actually one of the first ones ⁓ that surprised me. I think we can all kind of understand like, yeah, David and Bathsheba, maybe not like one that we want to teach with kids. Like, like they're obvious ones. But there are other ones that we teach all the time. And we never even think, hey, maybe this can wait. Maybe this is better when they're at a certain age level. Anyway, keep going.
Kirsten Hitchcock (46:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah,
KIDMIN U Team (47:14)
I just love that you brought that one up.
Kirsten Hitchcock (47:15)
yeah. Yeah, well, it's the one that when we were creating our scope and sequence for Wonder Inc, it was one of those that were like, we know there are some that are gonna be like, you have to teach this. And we're like, I don't think we can teach that one. And we made some compromises on some other ones. like,
thinking through like, this is really important and could we teach it in an age appropriate way? There are things that you leave out. You know, that doesn't mean you're not teaching truth. It means they're not ready to hear this part of the story, but they're still hearing what is, what are we learning about God? Are they still learning about God through the part of the story that we shared? Yes. So, ⁓ the Noah story. There's one. There's one. That's a hard one. That one.
KIDMIN U Team (48:05)
Hmm. Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (48:07)
You're going to misrepresent scripture is what you're going to do. We teach Noah, we teach it where, yep, he did wipe everybody out and we don't shy away from that. It's not fun, right? Not fun. Not fun to know that God regretted creation and then was like, I'm going to wipe. But then there was one righteous man. They said, but I will start over with you. I will make a commitment and I'll say, I will never do this again. And I will start over with you.
KIDMIN U Team (48:24)
Ha ha ha ha ha
Kirsten Hitchcock (48:37)
And what we learned from that is righteousness, following God, everything that was happening. There was no one else following God. Like you realize what had happened and God made a covenant promise with Noah that covenant reminds us that never again will that happen no matter how bad things get because of Jesus. So then all of a sudden you get to tell them, be like, hey, that promise that he kept is look, look what's coming.
Like you get to then jump ahead to what we know about what Jesus's death and resurrection means for us today. We get to jump forward and say, look, that promise came true. That promise, that promise that I will never do this again. ⁓ But Noah's a hard story. And how many of us are like, how many of us decorate with Noah? For real, think about nurseries, you know.
KIDMIN U Team (49:27)
my gosh, yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (49:30)
I didn't think it was a problem until I started digging into description, until I was older, until I was in ministry, until I was like, oh wow, guys, this story, we teach it like it's really like, look, all the animals went on the ark and the boat went up and you're like, you don't see pictures of things floating in the water, but that's the reality of what was happening. You realize, you're like, oh, okay.
KIDMIN U Team (49:53)
Mm-hmm.
Kirsten Hitchcock (49:59)
But there's ways to teach. There are ways to teach you're going to leave certain things out though. And so then you're going to be accused of, ⁓ are you telling the whole truth? You're like, well, I am telling the truth about God. I am. But when we come back to this story, when we come back to the Noah story, they're going to learn something new about God because they're going to hear another part of it. Right here. What is the part that I want them to hear at age three, four and five? Now, when we come back into early elementary, what's the part they're going to hear now that may be new to them?
Hey, here's the Noah story. And here's a part of the story that maybe you haven't heard before. That you keep that's once again doing that spiral learning aspect, the building blocks, like building into what are they ready to hear? Right. ⁓ So, yes. What are your thoughts, Jeremy? I'm going to flip it back.
KIDMIN U Team (50:49)
Yeah, no, mean, it's funny because I think that quote, that's not me talking, by the way, that was another ministry leader years ago that I heard. And I think it was, it was said and structured in a way that was meant to get a reaction. was meant to, you know, like really grab your attention and it succeeded at that. but it's not entirely wrong. I've actually come to agree with it for the most part where, ⁓ yes, I think every person should know the Bible and know
Kirsten Hitchcock (50:57)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (51:19)
overarching story of scripture, they should know who God is, what he came to do, ⁓ all of that. But I do think there are certain things that can wait for a different time. And I think the reason we don't like talking about that is because it requires trust with other people on our team. Like, let's talk really practically right now. The reason that we have a hard time saying that I don't want to teach this story, and I think it would be better in middle school or high school is because I don't know
Kirsten Hitchcock (51:30)
Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (51:48)
if my middle school or high school pastor is actually going to teach it. Like if we're honest, there's part of us where we're like, if I don't teach it now, when will they hear it? And I get that. Like I get that, you know, this might be our only real shot to help build ⁓ a
Kirsten Hitchcock (52:00)
Hmm. Hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (52:03)
biblical foundation. But I just come back to this idea that I don't think kids need to know every square inch of the Bible to still understand the Bible. I think that's where understanding the story of it is huge. You know,
Kirsten Hitchcock (52:14)
Mm. Mm.
KIDMIN U Team (52:18)
About
a year ago, like this is kind of a little bit before I decided to shift into doing this full time. And was at my church and I had this pitch that I was giving to our leadership team. was so close to getting a yes, but the project would have been really exciting where maybe like two years ago we published a children's storybook. So we did like a 12 week series through the book of Luke. And so we did a 12 story storybook through the book of Luke for kids. In fact, I think it's like somewhere over here.
Kirsten Hitchcock (52:36)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (52:48)
You can find it on Amazon. But we did that and it was really cool. We had an illustrator in our church and it felt like a starting point for us where I was like, what if we did more of that? Like what if we created our own
Kirsten Hitchcock (52:59)
Mm.
KIDMIN U Team (53:00)
curriculum that was built for us? And it was essentially going to be a one year curriculum. That's another hot take I have. I actually am not a big fan of two and three year cycles, not because they're not good, but because I think it's really hard to teach kids that
overall story of God when it's so stretched out. I actually think they feel more in it when you go through it every year. That's my thought. And also, like my core thought is like, if you keep it simple and I choose
Kirsten Hitchcock (53:24)
Interesting,
KIDMIN U Team (53:30)
the 52 most powerful stories for understanding the story of scripture, I have to think if I repeat that six times in elementary, those kids are going to have a much stronger biblical worldview than if I were to try and teach every story in the Bible.
Kirsten Hitchcock (53:33)
Hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (53:45)
Because I think that's what we try
Kirsten Hitchcock (53:46)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (53:47)
and do. We try and teach everything and ⁓ it's really hard. And so this project that we pitched, by the way, bringing it full circle, that wasn't just a random tidbit. There's a reason for it. But the whole idea was we're going to have a one year thing and we would have, I think it was six different story books that we would publish. And so each one would be a different era in the story of God. So you would talk about the creation era or the kingdom era or the Jesus era or the church era, like things like that.
Kirsten Hitchcock (54:03)
Mm-hmm. Thank
KIDMIN U Team (54:15)
And so if you only have six and now you can teach kids like, this is where we're at in that story. Here's what happens during this phase. ⁓ To me, I think that goes way further in actually helping them understand the story of God. And it relieves the pressure of having to teach every single thing, because just like what we're talking about, there are some stories are just going to be really hard, even if it's just like. ⁓
on a logical level, trying to wrap our heads around that as a four-year-old or as a first grader. There are certain ideas that I don't want say we're not ready for, but ⁓ yeah, like the story of Noah, you said it could be misrepresented. I think that's true. It's like, well, what if the way that we're teaching it actually is not serving them well, like long-term? Yeah. Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (55:00)
Causing more harm. Like it teaches them something
that's not actually true about God. you're like, so you just, but you have to do that with anything, right? With any story you're teaching, you need to look at it say, okay, what is this really teaching us about God? And I think what you said about Rock Harbor and how that was, that was incredibly, it changed a lot of things.
regards to me, it changed how you viewed curriculum because all of a sudden you went from these more application based takeaways to saying, no, the takeaway is God is blank. Like God is omnipotent. Now that's a hard word, but God is, you know, God is loving. God's covenant, like everything was a God statement. and we took that. It truly is a part of the David C. Cook.
curriculum family and wonder Inc is its cousin. Cause basically we, took so much, like there's so much good that you're, you're like, we need to do this. And so all of ours are also got God or Jesus or Holy spirit focused. Right. And I think, ⁓ that matters in how you teach. So I think when you say, when you ask that question, like, is it all appropriate? You're like, no, probably not. And.
There's also aspects of like, can you help, how do you help kids see the big picture? You said to keep it simple. I agree. think keeping it simple is great. There's so much scripture to dig into, right? ⁓ There's so much to dig into. And I think often we shy away from the epistles. I think of the epistles and how they're overlooked because they're hard to teach. And so when they're hard to teach, we kind of were like, I'm not sure what to do. So I'm just not gonna do it. ⁓
where you realize in adult ministry, I'm gonna say adult ministry, this sounds terrible, in ⁓ like big church, when you're looking at big, you sit in the epistles and gospels a lot. We actually don't do a really good job of going into the Old Testament. So isn't that interesting to think about?
We're expecting our kids to get the foundation of what the Bible is and who God is throughout the metanarrative of scripture, but I don't necessarily think we do that very well once we adulthood. I think we expect people to go do it on their own.
And I'm like, you know, I think it's tough. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (57:25)
Yeah, I agree with that.
Okay, for the sake of time, I want to actually ask one last question before we get to some Q &A from some of the people on our live stream. But here's my question for you. All right, this is what we'll land on. You currently work with a publisher.
actually a big reason why I wanted to have you on for this conversation, because this is the world you live in. You're trying to think what do we need to do for each age group? What do want to teach? And how do we want to teach it? I'd love to know your thought process. I don't know if I've even really had a conversation with somebody on the inside about when you're creating something new, like wonder Inc is a newer thing. You were probably part of the creation of that with a team of people where
From the ground up, you're trying to dream, like, what do we want for this? What are some of the factors, considerations? What goes into that process of figuring out what do want this to look like and what do we want our final product to be for each of these age groups?
Kirsten Hitchcock (58:21)
Yeah. Yeah, it was amazing and also quite the process. ⁓ I think, especially specifically working, so in working with a publisher, there, are also a lot of things that you have to think about the customer. So you have to think about who would buy this, your customer base and things. And we did, there were tons and tons of research we did. ⁓ But we knew from the very beginning, I was like, I knew from the very beginning.
and so did our team, that we wanted to continue to help kids understand what it means to know who God is and who they are and Him. Like we knew from the very beginning, like every time we teach a story, we need to show them who God is so they get to know Him. Like that was our main thing. And we knew...
There were some things that were already predetermined based on research. We're like, okay, people want a three-year scope and sequence. So I think it's kind of cool that you said, you're like, ⁓ I don't really like two or three years. like, well, everybody else, but everybody else does. ⁓ But to realize like, okay, because I get, I think part of it is over three years kids will forget and then they'll come back and be like, hey, I'm ready for this. Let's do this. ⁓
KIDMIN U Team (59:24)
I know, that's my hot take. I get it.
Kirsten Hitchcock (59:40)
So we knew we needed to do a three year. We knew we wanted everybody doing the same stories. So enter into the chat, the hard conversations we had to wrestle through to decide which stories we're gonna teach because we're gonna do all ages. So we did some harder stories for probably our pre-K kids, but...
We also are reminded like hooks of learning. They're going to hear the story. We want them to gravitate to the God statement. If that's all they remember is God is something and they heard a little bit about the story of they heard a little bit about the story of the let's for instance, like the golden calf or the bronze snake, some harder stories that are like, wait, they were being bitten by snakes and then they looked at a snake and it was fine. Like weird stories, but also
Helping them focus on who got well, what what did we see to be true about God in that? You know like helping kids grasp of that and then three years later, they're gonna come back to that story. They're gonna be older They're in a different cognitive development stage. They're now going to hear something new from that story But the God statement hasn't but that God is statement hasn't changed. They're just re being reintroduced to it. They're doing different activities with it to help
to help that go from their head to their heart. And so we had to wrestle with those to say, well, but we want to help families have discussions, right? So it just so happens that Jeremy, you're going to be in a stage of life where your children are going to always be probably in the same area and always learning the same thing. So you won't have this because of where your kids are at for ages. But my kids are five years apart. So they could be in completely different.
KIDMIN U Team (1:01:24)
Yeah.
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:01:32)
had we been at a bigger church, my son would be learning a completely different idea about God, a completely different story. I don't really care about it's not that in and of itself. But to have family conversations with what you learn at church today, my kids would be like, I learned two different things. And maybe one doesn't know the other story. So we couldn't really have a family conversation we'd have to take, we were taking turns. And that is all fine. Like that is
I'm not saying one is better than the other. But what we were trying to do, we were really trying to help children and families ⁓ have faith conversations at home because the church, you're only at the church one hour a week. We're like, we wanted to empower the grownups in the household to be able to have those spiritual conversations. And so I think that's where that all began and how we started to develop.
those a scope and sequence was what journey do we want to take on? Well we want them to see the metanarrative. We want to see them the big story of God. So how are we going to do that? Well we're going to go through new stories each year to help them see this big picture of God. Help them connect the dots. You're not going to hear creation every year but you're going to hear about creation almost every week to know that that's where we began. Remember God created the heavens and the earth. He created this. Okay and then he created this person, this person and now we're here.
So every week we're helping get them caught up on the timeline of where are we at in the story. And I think that's what helps kids. You can do standalone stories, but you gotta give them context of where we're at, right? And that helps new people. If you have a new family that comes, the kid hasn't been there ever, and all of a sudden you're doing an obscure story in the Old Testament, well, help them know how you got there.
name drop Abraham name drop all these people that you're like hey all these people you've probably heard before great we're here now and here's where we're all learning together ⁓ so yeah i think it it is it's interesting when when you're when you're given a task and you're like okay let's go make this thing and it can feel really ⁓ it can feel really heavy because you want to make the right choice and i think what i've learned in this and like there isn't a this is the only way this is every church is built differently
And we desperately wanted to help with family conversations and helping children know who God is. And so that's the approach we took, was like the journey I wanted them to take to know who God is and who they are and Him. That's why we chose the stories that we did. So I that makes sense.
KIDMIN U Team (1:04:12)
Yeah, I love that. That was actually really cool. I was like geeking out a little bit while you were talking because I was like, this is great. Which by the way, little sidebar you could take back to your friends at David C. Cook. I think these sort of conversations are what people want to hear. I think we want to know how things are made and frankly, unpolished like this. I think it's actually really some of the my favorite things I've watched and listened to. I love when founders talk about like why and how they built their things.
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:04:26)
⁓
KIDMIN U Team (1:04:42)
⁓ and I think what often comes out of a publisher. Yeah, totally. You know, one of my favorite podcast is how I built this, you know, I don't know if you've ever listened to that, but
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:04:44)
How it's made. Yeah. ⁓
KIDMIN U Team (1:04:50)
it's founders talking about how they built these iconic, ⁓ companies and what the early days were like. We love that. And I actually think there could be power when you just have like, ⁓ even just a casual conversation.
with the team who made the curriculum and why you made the choices you do, because I think all we ever see as kids ministry leaders is the final product. And also there's probably a temptation for publishers to have like anything that goes out, you want it to be super polished and professional and dialed and whatever, for obvious reasons. But if you just had a very straightforward conversation, even interview style, I think people will be fascinated to know how
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:05:05)
.
KIDMIN U Team (1:05:31)
you landed on the structures that you had. ⁓
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:05:32)
Hmm. That's
KIDMIN U Team (1:05:34)
because none of those things happen by chance. Every single detail, I'm sure, was a long process. Lots of conversations, figuring out what is it we're trying to accomplish. And then guess what? When people know why you chose to do it that way, you're going to have raving fans who are like, my gosh, I agree. I get it. All of a sudden, I understand why you chose to do this or why you left that story out. And for me, I love, by the way, just a little tidbit.
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:05:35)
a point. Hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (1:06:02)
I love that you mentioned that story of the serpent on the pole, because that's one that, ⁓ up until maybe a few years ago, I don't even know that I like thought about it a whole lot. I didn't think it was that important. And then I read this book called biblical typology. I'll probably put this in, ⁓ the show notes, but like, if you're a nerd about like studying scripture, this book is going to be your favorite. Cause what they talk about is how everything in the Bible, especially the old Testament,
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:06:12)
Mm.
KIDMIN U Team (1:06:30)
It all points back to Jesus. And so you start to see these little symbols and examples, kind of like clues and hints of all
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:06:36)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (1:06:37)
these things that Jesus is going to do and the ways that he's going to fulfill scripture. And that story of the serpent on the pole is one of those like those core things. Yeah. Which I mean, quick summary of it. So the people are like groaning, complaining, they're being disobedient to God. And so God has a sense of humor. Maybe he sends a plague.
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:06:43)
Just as Moses raises the, yeah, yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (1:06:56)
the people of Israel, like a bunch of serpents are literally like attacking the people and they're dying. And ⁓ after a bit, he actually gives them a way out a way to save them. What he does is he actually has this pole and he takes one of those serpents and ⁓ it's I think it's a bronze serpent, it's not like a live one, but he puts that symbol on the pole. And if anyone comes to it and gazes at the pole, they'll be healed. And it's this whole idea of what Jesus is going to one day do on the cross.
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:07:14)
Mm-hmm. Great.
Thank
KIDMIN U Team (1:07:26)
He's going to represent the serpent where he's taking on sin and sin is the thing that's being crucified on the cross once and for all. And when we look to the cross, we're saved. It's like, wow, that's an Old Testament story talking about what's going to happen maybe like a couple thousand years from now. That's incredible. And yet we don't talk about things like that enough. And I get why it
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:07:33)
you. Thank you.
KIDMIN U Team (1:07:49)
might be hard for preschool, but for elementary, I definitely think that is a core story that is central to understanding.
like what God's trying to do in scripture and how none of this is an accident, but it's all all by design. Okay, we could geek out about this forever, but we're gonna jump over to our questions. We've got a few in the chat. Okay, so the first one is, ⁓ how do you have this kind of conversation with parents when they disagree with what or how we're teaching something? So the example that they gave in the comment was ⁓ teaching the Holy Spirit with preschoolers. So imagine, parent doesn't really understand
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:08:03)
Yeah. We could. Okay. Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (1:08:25)
why we're doing it the way we're doing, how would you handle that conversation?
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:08:27)
Yeah. Well, do it face to face because emails and texts are the worst. They're misinterpreted all the time. It's do whether it's zoom or a phone, like do something where you hear the person's voice and like you're really
So logistically, make the effort to do it in person. ⁓ Ask them, let them take a listening posture. You are not there to correct. That is not the reason you're meeting with them. If they have an issue with how you're teaching something, you want to fully hear out why. You do want to know that. You want to build, you want to build what we call relational equity with that parent. You want them to know, I will hear you. I will hear you out.
if we disagree. Okay, so you're going to hear that out. And then you're going to say, how would you teach it? Or when would you teach it? So asking them like, hey, when do you think it's an appropriate time to talk about the Holy Spirit? Because I think often in children's ministry, what we I like to say all the time, there's no junior Holy Spirit, the same spirit that is in like, that is in a grown adult, an eight year old, a six year old.
is the same spirit that enters a child when they choose to follow Jesus. And that could be very early in their life, right? So there's a junior Holy Spirit. Well, how do you explain to them, like, it's the presence of God in us. Like when we follow Jesus, it's the presence of God in us. So when you present it that way, it's not this weird thing that happens. It's like, do you want God's spirit with you? Knowing that he's with you at all times, that Jesus, our savior,
because of what he did on the cross, because of his death and resurrection, we get to have an inheritance that we get to when we choose to follow him. We are called children of God and therefore we have access to his spirit and his power today. Which child would you not want to, which person in the universe would you not want to know that? And so I think in there, that sounded like I was trying to convince you.
you kind of are at that point. At that point, you're listening like you're like, if it's if it's a I'm just not sure it could come out, especially with Holy Spirit. It could be that because that was I think one of the specific examples was like, for instance, Holy Spirit and Pre-K is asking them when do they think is appropriate and how would they describe it. It could be that they just don't have language for it and therefore they don't like how you're doing it because they don't know how to they don't know how to expound on that at home. So if they're taught like
comes and lives in my heart. ⁓ I don't like how you said that. That's weird. And how do I talk to my kid about that you just said something lives in their heart? Also, your language matters of how you talk about it. That's called Christianese, everybody. When you say something comes and lives in your heart, it's Christianese. No one knows what that means. So then you have to say, okay, the presence of God within you. you can talk about it as your soul. You can talk about it in all these different ways. But basically, you're just telling kids like, Jesus is with you right there.
When you choose to follow him, his spirit, he's right there with you. Not physically, but he's here. He's with you. And I think that's why we say he's in your heart, because we don't know, like, well, we need to give them something physical. You're like, he's with you. So let's imagine Jesus is just sitting next to us. So you can, kids understand imaginary friends. And I understand that that might be a wackadoo concept for people. But I think when you're able to relate it to something that they would understand.
⁓ I think that's really helpful and then you can help parents in that way.
KIDMIN U Team (1:12:08)
Awesome. thank you so much for coming on the podcast. you've been so gracious with your time. Kristen, if people want to know more about you and what you're up to, where can they find you?
Kirsten Hitchcock (1:12:18)
Yeah,
so you can find me. ⁓ Well, probably the easiest way is just to find me on my church website, which is the practicechurch.com. ⁓ You won't find my picture, but you'll find everything about our kids and children's ministry and my email address there, or also davidccook.org. ⁓ I'm part of the Wonder Inc team. So we have a Wonder Inc Facebook group, all about Wonder Inc. So I'm also on there a lot, just helping our
helping our tribe just like do their thing. And so we're here to just support children's pastors. And as a fellow children's pastor, it really is a gift to be able to just support other people and encourage them. so, yeah, so just my email just says, I'm a social person, okay, but I'm not on the socials very much.
I'm on Instagram, I'm on those things, so you can find me on there. But ⁓ I'm not as active as ⁓ Kidman U or Jeremy O'Neill. But I will answer questions if they're sent to me.
KIDMIN U Team (1:13:24)
Awesome. Well, Kristen, thank you. Kirsten. my goodness. I like I mix up those letters even though I know the real thing. I go back. I have so many friends who are on both sides and I end up like, my gosh. Anyway, Kirsten, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This is an awesome conversation. And for those who are listening and tuning in live, thank you for joining us and giving your questions. Hopefully we'll see you next time. And for anybody who is watching the final episode, thank you for supporting the Simple Kids Mr. Podcast. We love you and we'll see you next time.
