Kelli Ayotte: Building Your Own Curriculum
What does it look like to build a kids ministry curriculum completely from scratch — original songs, music videos, lesson plans, and more?
In this episode, Jeremy sits down with Kelli Ayotte, who spent 10 years in children's ministry co-leading a creative team alongside her husband Jordan at Sandals Church. Kelli shares how they identified the "gap" that drove their decision to create original content, what it was like to lead a collaborative team as a married couple, and how COVID became an unexpected turning point for family engagement.
She also opens up about partnering with parents, the power of authentic storytelling, and lessons learned from years of ministry. Plus, hear about her new book, I Am Kelphaba, and what life looks like after stepping away from vocational ministry.
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Transcript:
Jeremy (00:00)
Well, Kelly, welcome to the podcast.
Kelli Ayotte (00:02)
Thanks so much for having me, glad to be here.
Jeremy (00:05)
Yeah, okay, so for our listeners right there, I wanna introduce you guys to Kelly Iott. Her and her husband Jordan are people I've worked with back in the day at Sandals. They are two of the most creative people I know. And one of the things we're gonna talk about on this episode is some projects they were a part of. They created curriculum for our kids ministry from scratch. And we're not talking about just lesson plans, we're talking about worship songs, like writing songs, creating.
music videos, creating booklets for kids, all kinds of handouts, special resources, like every single thing a kid would see, touch, experience, all of that was handmade by this team and it was incredible work. I think you guys are gonna love hearing about it, but maybe before we dig into that, Kelly, introduce us to who you are and maybe even how you got connected into the kids ministry world.
Kelli Ayotte (00:57)
Yeah, so like you said, my husband Jordan and I, actually met working in ministry. And so like our entire relationship from friendship, dating, marriage till now, like we just know each other working in ministry. We've got two kids. We have a daughter who's 12, son who's eight. So they've also grown up in this space watching mom and dad create kids curriculum. So I was working in vocational ministry for about 15 and a half years.
And about 10 of those years was spent in children's ministry. And so my first few years on staff at the church, I did a bunch of different things and it was end of 2014, were actually, Jordan and I together were invited to step into children's ministry. And the job description at the time was like, can you just make the weekends great? Like that was the direction, like nothing else. And they were like, do you want to do it? Jordan said, yes. I said, absolutely not.
I never envisioned myself in kids ministry all and so I hesitated. I was running my own business at the time. I was working from home. You know, my daughter was only a year old and so I was like, I don't think I want to do that. So I spent some time praying and you know, the classic God's like, just trust me and say yes. And within the first year, man like,
Jeremy (01:49)
Yeah.
Kelli Ayotte (02:12)
I would say that's really where God like completely shifted my heart. Like I fell in love with the ministry. I fell in love with the kids and the families and just like the world of creativity really opened up and it was just fun and it was meaningful and the connections made with the kids like, yeah, like I said, I just fell in love with it. And so from that point forward, like I said, I was doing it for 10 years and like nothing else made sense to me. And I'm like, to this day, like I have such a huge heart for families, for parents.
and for kids to know Jesus and learn about the Bible in really fun and engaging ways. So it's been a ride, lots of ups and downs, but so, so grateful.
Jeremy (02:51)
Yeah, think so putting the pieces together in the whole timeline, I'm realizing I probably came on to the team maybe about three years or so after that. And by that point, it's funny hearing your introduction and this whole maybe uncertainty like some of this took you by surprise that this would be such a great fit and such a natural thing. Because by the time I got there, it was like, Kelly's a kid's person. Like Kelly is in her wheelhouse. By the time I got there, I would have never guessed that because
It always felt like you and Jordan were such a natural fit creating stuff for kids. Like that is, ⁓ you're gifted uniquely to do that. I think one thing that I always thought was fascinating is you serve with your husband in ministry. And I know some people do that, right? There are some people who are on staff and you both just happen to be on staff, but you guys were more than that. You literally were partners on the same team, leading that team together. Like you guys, they shared an office.
Kelli Ayotte (03:42)
Yes.
Jeremy (03:47)
They worked as closely as you possibly could together. And I think even for people who like have a spouse on staff, this was another level of that. And I feel like you guys carried that really, really well. But what was that like? How did you guys manage that? Cause I, even though you made it look easy, I'm sure it wasn't always so easy.
Kelli Ayotte (04:07)
Yeah, yeah, no, thanks for saying that. ⁓ I think because we worked together, you know, very early on, we kind of did learn each other's rhythms ⁓ as just like co-workers and friends and things like that. Yeah, it was so funny during that season. Yeah, we would drive to work together, exit work together, sit side by side. Like the only way we'd be closer is this like Jordan was sitting on my lap while we worked in the office. ⁓
But I think what's always worked for Jordan and I, because we've been asked that, like, how do you do that? I think what has worked for Jordan and I is like, he has a set of skills that I don't have and vice versa. And I think we have this very large respect for one another. And so I don't think that pride gets in the way a lot for us. And so I'm OK to step back and let him lead in areas that he's gifted in and vice versa. And I think that when we were leading the team together, it kind of naturally
⁓ came out that way where I was leading a certain part of the team, he was leading a certain part of the team and it was within his gifts and skill sets and my gifts and skill sets. That's not to say, yeah, there were for sure days where we would maybe get into it in the morning and have to go into work together and it would be like the silent car ride to work and then.
Jeremy (05:21)
gosh.
Kelli Ayotte (05:21)
you go to your corner,
you do your thing and I'll go do my thing and then we'll figure this out later. I think there, you know, we got so close to our team. There were a couple of times where we were like, hey, just FYI, like Jordan and I had a disagreement this morning. So, so sorry if the tension is like awkward today. But no, I would say for the most part, like we just, I think we compliment each other and we have just a really big respect for each other. And so we make space for each other to do what we're best at.
Jeremy (05:46)
Yeah, one of things I really appreciated about the way that you guys led, it was so different maybe in terms of leadership style because it very much felt highly collaborative. Like if somebody just walked into your team ⁓ who didn't know any of you, didn't know Sandals, they didn't know anything about the team and you asked them who's the team leader, they might not even know because the way that you guys operated was so collaborative. You partner with each other. There was just a really healthy culture there. ⁓
Kelli Ayotte (05:57)
Mm.
Jeremy (06:16)
Was that intentional? Was that something you guys intentionally curated? Because I always looked at that and thought, man, that's really different than other teams, but the stuff you guys were able to do together was pretty exceptional. And I think part of it might've been a result of that.
Kelli Ayotte (06:30)
Yeah, well, first, I'm glad that you were able to notice that from the outside. There was a lot of intentionality in that. ⁓ I think for Jordan and I, that was really the first time that we were leading other people, ⁓ specifically leading other staff members, specifically hiring our own team, deciding what roles we wanted to hire, getting approval for those roles from our leadership. ⁓ And so I think that we both came in with past experiences of both good
and not so great leadership that I think influenced some of our values and what we wanted to create. I would definitely say Jordan and I value collaboration. That's very, very important to us for the reason of ⁓ if we only do anything based on what I think or I know, like what a narrow experience we're going to create. So it was very important to us that anybody we brought on the team had different perspectives than us, had a different background, had different levels of experience.
And so we were very mindful about that when we brought people on the team. And so our team at its biggest, we had seven people total, including us. Everybody had a specific role. had a music writer, producer. We had a project manager. We had a writer. We had a graphic designer. We had a videographer. And then it was Jordan and I that did a lot of other pieces and oversaw parts of that.
⁓ But every single person on our team, we wanted them to have space to speak into anything we were planning or producing. We never wanted to be the bosses that were like, this is what we're doing because this is what we want. We were like, no, we want to hear from you. And there were times where we're like, we're going to make the final call. This is the direction we're going. But I valued and we valued everybody's perspective because our team was a mix of people that grew up in church and didn't grow up in church. had a mix of people who
⁓ were more academic minded and more creative. for thinking about kids, we would ask often, when you were a kid, how would this speak to you? How would you receive this? Would you be excited about this? Would you engage in this? And we wanted to hear that because we had seven of us with very different perspectives. ⁓ so yeah, making sure our people had a space to share, making sure I had a space for our people to bring their perspective, their experience.
KIDMIN U Team (08:27)
Hmm.
Kelli Ayotte (08:46)
and a say, also too, we would tell every single one of them, like, if we've hired you to write the curriculum, you are the expert in writing the curriculum. Like we are here to support and sure, I might have my own experience to speak into it, but like, I want you to own this. Like you are the expert. And so if that means we hold a training for our team, I want you to be the person that talks about our curriculum, because you wrote it and I want you to get the credit. ⁓ And so.
That was very, very important to us. And I do think, you know, it wasn't always perfect and there were misses, sure. But I do think our team also just trusted each other and also had mutual respect. Like I would look and go, I don't know how to do this. I'm gonna look to you. And even though I'm the boss, I'm gonna default to your experience, because you're better at this than I am. That's why I hired you. I need you to be better at this than I am.
because that's how you contribute to this team. So yeah, so I think just making room and absolutely creating a safe space for collaboration and creativity and for failures and successes, I think is what made us such a strong team that was fun to work with too.
KIDMIN U Team (09:49)
Yeah, you guys definitely had a lot of fun. You were the team that would always go out to lunch together, do fun things. If people could see what it was like behind the camera on a video shoot or whatever, you guys were having a blast. It was like, yes, there's a time to work and there's a time to get stuff done. But I think when it comes to enjoying what you do, you guys embodied that. And I remember to our executive pastor at the time, who's still there,
Kelli Ayotte (09:52)
Read it.
KIDMIN U Team (10:17)
would often say, I remember him saying that this is a place where we want people to do their life's work and their best work. And I feel like you guys probably embodied that more than any other team. I think if you were to ask each of those seven people, what are you most excited to be a part of? Like throughout your career, what are you most proud of that you've built and made and offered to the world? I think a lot of them would point to their time, you know, creating that curriculum, working together. Like there's a really cool dynamic.
⁓ in play. almost imagine like the way that people used to talk about like Pixar studios back in the day, you know, just like people having a blast, but then they ended up making really special moments for other people. That's kind of what it was like, I think with your team as well. Let's talk about what you guys built though. ⁓ So one of the reasons I wanted to bring you on is because this is pretty unique. You guys created everything from scratch. Originality was kind of the name of the game. We didn't want to borrow
Kelli Ayotte (10:58)
Bye.
KIDMIN U Team (11:16)
Anything we weren't trying to make a cover of an already popular song We wanted to make our own songs for our own kids and our own families And we wanted to do it in a way that was uniquely us and to do that it it takes so much people don't realize and so maybe This would be a fun conversation to dig in and talk about the nitty-gritty maybe from a high level ⁓ perspective ⁓ Maybe talk about like what were your goals like in terms of you know, like
how long the scope and sequence was, like what type of deliverables you were trying to do. Like how would you describe the assignment that you guys were given? Because it feels like a lot. I'm curious how you would articulate it.
Kelli Ayotte (11:55)
Yeah,
it was a lot and I don't think when we took it on we knew what we were getting ourselves into. Like I said, we had seven people on the team at its biggest and that still wasn't enough people is what I would say. ⁓ So in probably like 2016 at the time, so we worked at a multi-site church.
At the time, we only had two, three campuses. And so when Jordan and I first started in this role, when we were told to make the weekends great, we were doing live plays. Like that was our approach to curriculum. We both knew the theater world. And so we were like, we know that. So let's just do live plays. Once our campuses started growing, we knew we needed to shift to video. Jordan has a background in video. So he was like, I guess I will edit video.
But the big question that we kept asking is if we shift from purchased curriculum to original from scratch curriculum, what is the gap that we're filling? And I think anybody who if it's curriculum or a project or a business or anything that you're doing, I think you have to answer that question because I think if you can answer it, that actually influences what your values are and how you approach the thing that you're creating.
And so I remember we would sit around the table and go, if we create curriculum, are we just more white noise to the curriculum world? Like there's already people making curriculum. What are we going to do that's different and special and unique? Like why put in all the time and the energy and resources to make curriculum if it's already there? Do we adapt the curriculum? Like what are we doing differently?
And I remember we sat in that space for several months and we couldn't answer the question. And so it just kind of seemed like, I don't know that we're gonna make curriculum ourselves. Do we need it? And it was specifically, we were on a staff retreat ⁓ at that time. And ⁓ our pastor was kind of in this space where he really wanted to reiterate our church's vision. And so he was sharing with the staff like his heart for this vision of authenticity, of being real.
And this is something that I had heard hundreds of times. Like I had been at the church for years, like this wasn't new, but in that moment it clicked for me. And I would say it was the Holy Spirit going like, that's the gap. What we need to do is we need to create curriculum that is authentic, that is real for our kids at this church. And I think it...
was so important because I remember at that time almost weekly I would have conversations with kids that were eight, 10 years old that were dealing with things that as an adult I'd never dealt with. Broken homes, divorce, really hard things going on at school. Like these kids were not really responding to like the song and dance of church. And I think there's a time and a place for puppets and there's time and a place for characters, but I was like these kids.
need something authentic and they need real and they need truth because they're operating at a level that's older than themselves. And so once we kind of answered that question of, you know, we need to bring authentic curriculum to these kids, what does that even mean? And I would say at the time, you know, again, our vision of real and authenticity was very, very common to talk about in the church, but it wasn't really showing up in children's ministry.
And so was important to us to say, do we bring it down to even a two-year-old? How do we get them to start understanding what authenticity means as they're living out their relationship with Jesus? And so ⁓ we began to kind of work through how we would create curriculum based on that filter. ⁓
We had an incredible volunteer at the time who had actually been building out his own version of like, if we made our own curriculum, this is what I'd want it to be. And he ended up being someone that served with us for years. Like I'm still friends with him to today. Like he is fantastic, but he had built out this three year scope. It was through the Bible, Genesis to Revelation in order. This is what we're going to do. And so he had actually kind of already built a framework and we said, okay, we have a framework.
We know the gap that we're gonna fill. We're gonna talk about authenticity. So what does this now look like? ⁓ And so a couple of the things that became values for us in the creation was anytime we're on screen talking about a biblical truth or a scripture, it's always gonna be from a real person. We're not gonna dress up as characters. We're not gonna have like a puppet. We're not gonna have an animation. It's gonna be a real person from this church, whether it's...
KIDMIN U Team (16:22)
Hmm.
Kelli Ayotte (16:28)
myself or my husband, whether it's another staff member, a parent, a volunteer, or even kids, we wanted the truth to come from real people sharing their own experiences and their encounters with Jesus. That was a huge value for us. And so we ended up having to pitch this entire thing to our executive team because at the end of this pitch, it sounded all great. Like, hey, we want to bring the vision to kids. They were like, what's it going to cost? What kind of team do you need? And so we're like, we need like five roles.
KIDMIN U Team (16:53)
Yup.
Kelli Ayotte (16:56)
which means five extra salaries and all these different things. But I was so grateful, like they believed in it and they were willing to back it and support it. And they were like, let's go, like show us what you can do. ⁓ And man, it was clunky at the beginning. We didn't know what we were doing in a lot of ways. We learned very early on. We needed a lot of voices and a lot of perspectives. We needed to learn how our campuses operated. We needed to learn what a Sunday felt like for our staff that worked on a Sunday, whereas
KIDMIN U Team (17:02)
Mm-hmm.
Kelli Ayotte (17:26)
I wasn't in that position as much as the time. And so there was a lot of learning lessons, ⁓ but over time we really refined what it looked like. And I think what we ended up creating was a curriculum that filled the gap. And I think it was very authentic. And I think it did connect families and kids in a really beautiful, unique way that I'm really, really proud of.
KIDMIN U Team (17:48)
You should be. ⁓ One of the things that I thought was really cool as you were sharing that, and I was just reminded, was just the willingness to invest in the next generation, not just from our team, but from the highest levels of leadership in the church.
There's so many times where we would bring something to them. I know you would bring stuff, I would bring stuff. And as long as we could cast a compelling vision and we were clear on our why, they were always willing to invest. And maybe it wasn't always as much as we asked for, you know, because sometimes we would ask for the moon and settle for the stars as they say. ⁓
But it was really cool to see that they cared about it too. And I think this might be a takeaway for people listening too, because I think there are some things that you did to maybe position yourself that way. Where I think sometimes if all we do is say, this is what I want to do and this is what it's going to cost. If that's it, if that's all we did, we shouldn't be surprised when we get a no. But there were things that you did that I think ⁓ were in your favor, starting with, you know, and I don't know if Kelly mentioned this in her answer, but this vision of being
real and authentic was the vision of the church, right? So at Sandals, they say we wanna be real with ourselves, God and others. So you took something that was important straight from our senior pastor, our founding pastor. This is core to the DNA of our church and that's gonna be the core of our content as well. And not only that, we have this vision for what we wanna actually see in kids and you guys are painting a beautiful picture. So by the time you actually get to the price tag, they're like, listen, even if it's a lot, it's worth it.
Like because of what you're doing, it's worth it. And even a few years later, like we were into this already and you already had content available. I remember our executive pastor came to us and said, Hey, what if we created our own online platform? Kind of like the YouTube of our kids ministry, you know, and all of this amazing stuff that we created. What if families could access all of it there? And so we built that out like custom coded experience, like
I had amazing people working on it. And listen, like the Lord used that too, because like less than six months, no, it was probably like two months later, COVID happened. So like, while everybody else was scrambling to figure out how do we take our stuff and put it online, we had just coincidentally already done that. It was there. We just shared the link. That's all we had to do. ⁓
Kelli Ayotte (19:57)
Yeah.
Right. Yep.
It was as easy as that,
KIDMIN U Team (20:11)
Yeah, I don't want to rub it in for other people because I know that ended up being a really hard year for so many, but that was an example of like the forethought, the investment from our executive leadership team. What other things were you guys doing? Cause I think you guys probably had to be strategic with how you would bring things to them in a way that they'd be able to see why it matters and see why it's worth investing in. What were the things on your radar as you brought stuff to the lead pastor or executive pastor or whoever the decision maker was?
Kelli Ayotte (20:41)
Yeah, so what I would say is, yeah, our executive pastor that you're talking about, he was very, very proactive and like regular check ins and asking where we are in the process, what's working, what's not working, what are you learning from other staff members? But I do think the most important thing that we could offer were the stories, stories specifically from our staff members on the ground floor who were implementing this curriculum.
⁓ And then stories from the team members, the volunteers who were actively in small groups with kids using the materials. So hearing their stories and saying, hey, this is working, this is not working. That was really a helpful measure again, because we were also learning. So I think those kinds of things, taking that back was really helpful. What I would say was a huge turning point was actually during COVID in 2020. I think what was so unique about that season is
what our team was creating was now going directly into the homes of families. And so our parents have for the first time had an opportunity to see what their kids were doing. And we also again, like our team couldn't could not have done COVID just our team. Like we had other staff members, we had volunteers, we had so many people supporting the efforts because we were trying to
put out curriculum more so than just the weekend during COVID. We were going like live on Instagram every single day. We were in story times. We were doing like these live quiz shows. We were, you know, upping the production of curriculum. ⁓ But specifically getting the parents to see what was happening. We, during COVID, ⁓ one of the ways we wanted to connect, stay connected with the families was we gave out our church's address and we said, write us letters. We want to hear from you.
They flooded in. Kids would write, and I'll probably get teared up because it's one of the most meaningful times. Kids were sending in drawings. Kids were building gifts and making things out of clay. Kids were asking for prayer. I remember letters from eight-year-old kids that were saying, my parents are getting a divorce. Can you just pray for me? We were getting parents writing letters, grandparents writing letters.
And they just had so much gratitude, especially in that very unknown season where they were like, thank you for being a constant and thank you for providing a way that my kid can still connect and still learn about the Bible and learn about Jesus. But I think the moment we got the parents to engage with it, it completely changed the game. And so I think taking that back to our leadership and saying, our parents are being affected by it.
Our parents are engaging differently with their kids. Our parents are taking steps to disciple their kids in a way that they never have before. And I think what we saw happen in 2020, I think we saw effects of that happening even after our doors reopened and things like that. I think it just changed the way families connected. And that's not to say, like, I don't want to take credit, like, oh, the thing I made, but no, I think it was just how it happened. I think it created something really, really beautiful and really meaningful for our church.
KIDMIN U Team (23:48)
I think regardless of whether you're creating your own content or not, that's our goal. We're trying to partner with parents. We're trying to bring what happens on Sunday into a living room at home because that's the most important part. Like what we do matters, of course, but unless mom and dad are owning that and really being the primary spiritual champion in their home, there's only so much we can do. What would you tell people? I know not everybody's in the same situation where they're creating original stuff and
Thank goodness we're not in COVID anymore and we can gather. But what would you, just looking back, what would you tell another kids ministry leader about what to think through? Are there strategic ways that you would go about partnering with parents? How do you think about all that?
Kelli Ayotte (24:20)
Yeah. Yeah.
Man, yes, this is something I've thought about for 10 years so much. ⁓ being a parent myself, I'm like, what makes sense in our home? And I think the most important thing when it comes to partnering with parents is diversification in what you're creating or resourcing them with. Every family is different. Every parent is different. Every home is different. The rhythms are different. And so,
I do think one of the easiest things is on a Sunday at pick up, like, here's a piece of paper, here's what we talked about, here's my reverse, here's like our one thing or whatever. ⁓ That's easy. That's fruit on the ground of like, there are parents that are gonna interact with that, but they're parents that will not. And it actually occurred to me ⁓ probably a couple of years ago, like I said, my daughter's 12 and we're entering into this season of her life where we're having some very real conversations about some real things that are happening in her life.
And I remember it was sometime in the middle of the week and she was navigating a really difficult situation with some friends and school and things like that. And I realized in my mind, I'm like, I'm not referencing what she talked about on the weekend in service. What I need right now as a parent who has never parented a 12 year old before is like, what do I say? What's the wisdom from scripture I need right now? How do I pray for me to be able to speak to her? How do I pray for my daughter? And so I think again, that's an example of diversification is like,
KIDMIN U Team (25:45)
Hmm.
Kelli Ayotte (25:55)
A resource for a parent with a three-year-old might look different than a resource for a parent with a 13-year-old. And I think what is most important is creating a community where parents can connect with other parents and where we can share our stories. Because, I mean, you're a parent yourself, like, I think the most valuable parenting equipping that I've received in my life is hearing the story from another parent who's maybe in a similar season or a season ahead of me. And they go, this is what I did right.
this is what I did wrong, and then I get to glean from that. And that's not to say what's happened on the weekend can't connect, because I do think it creates framework and structure and rhythms that are important, and any rhythms we can create in our homes, ⁓ because parenting is chaotic, I think is valuable. Like right now with the church, we're doing a family Bible reading plan, we're going through Lent, so we have this poster where every single day there's a scripture to read ⁓ up until Easter. And that's a rhythm that we've been able to implement in our home, but not every family can do that.
And so I think it's also really important to keep in mind that anything we resource a parent with, we don't want it to be too complex or too complicated that they feel like a failure right out of the gate. We have to keep it simple. We have to create things that easily implement into the rhythms they're already living. So is there something they can ask or talk about on the way to drop off at school? That's a rhythm that's already happening. You know, the bedtime rhythms, if you're sitting around the dinner table.
And so diversification, think, is the most important thing, is it's not a one-size-fits-all. ⁓ So offering different options, I think, is gonna hit your families differently. But I do think a community where parents connect with parents is incredibly, incredibly valuable.
KIDMIN U Team (27:33)
Yeah. And I think one mistake I see a ton ⁓ from publishers, ⁓ primarily not to put them on blast or anything, but I think a lot of the stuff that gets created for parents, all these parent resources that are supposed to be ⁓ so valuable, sometimes it's just too much. It's not bad content. It's really good. It's just overwhelming. And a parent looks at that and they say, I don't know where to start. And I do think one thing you guys always looked at, whether it was a parent resource or
Kelli Ayotte (27:41)
Bye.
KIDMIN U Team (28:03)
volunteer using it or a kid experiencing it is I do think there is a value whether it was stated or not to make things really simple and easy to use because to your point if a parent looks at that like to me if I guess I mean I've got two babies it's not like they're older nobody's giving me a discipleship guide for for for my 15 month old but you know if somebody hands me something and there's just a lot on it I'll just I don't even know if I'll try you know I'll just kind of like leave it to the side
Kelli Ayotte (28:30)
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (28:32)
And what
Kelli Ayotte (28:32)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (28:32)
you guys did really well was make it accessible more than anything else for parents. What are some other ways? Cause I feel like I saw that in action, just in kind of all aspects of ⁓ what you created and whatnot. How else were you thinking about that in terms of how volunteers are going to use things, how kids are going to experience in it and even a staff member implementing it.
Kelli Ayotte (28:52)
Yeah, so I think with the kid piece, ⁓ one of the things that was really important to us is if we are resourcing a parent or doing something on the weekend or midweek, what's something that we can do where the kid will be excited and then the kid kind of leads the experience. As a parent, if my kid's like, I want to do that thing, I'm like, let's do that thing. And it almost takes the burden off the parent to like always have to remember it.
And so that was one of our approaches in terms of what we were putting in the hands of families is would a kid see this and say, mom, I have to do this, dad, we have to do this. So that was really important to us. And yeah, simplicity was huge for anybody that's interacting with what we did. We wanted it to be fun. I think there needs to be an element of fun for sure. So something colorful or well-designed or well-branded, something that someone would want to pick up and interact with.
Again, going back to the like real story piece, I think that was always really important was we wanted to be able to highlight and share real experiences from anybody who was part of the ministry in any capacity. So hey, this real volunteer who serves at this very real campus, this was kind of their experience or this was a moment that they got to have with their kids at their campus this weekend. Let this be an encouragement to you to how you lead.
And I think in simplicity, what we also wanted to offer the teams was customization that made sense for their specific campus. know, at this point, the church has 14 campuses. You can imagine campuses, you know, mostly across Southern California, every single one is its own demographic, its own types of people with their own backgrounds and experiences. So we really wanted to be able to hand our teams, you know, the framework and say, hey, these things are required.
Here's your framework, here's the main pieces. But like we trust you to customize and make it make sense for the community in which you're serving. ⁓ And so have fun with that. Like you have gifts and skills and talents and perspectives. So run with it and make it your own so that it makes sense for the community at your campus.
KIDMIN U Team (31:01)
Yeah. I think one thing there that people might not realize is it's really hard, I imagine, to pour so much of yourself into the things that you make. You know, in this case, it was curriculum, you know, and you are just putting in so much prayer and time and work and all of it into this final product. And then you hand it to people who might do it completely different. How do you handle that tension? You know, and, and
You know, because I think the very human part of us is like, worked so hard for this. There's a reason I built it this way. And if you do it differently, you're ruining it. Like that's, that's a very normal human thought process. How did you guys reconcile that? Cause there's part of it where you want to be proud of what you make, but another part where you've got to trust other people. What was that like for you guys?
Kelli Ayotte (31:48)
Yeah,
really hard initially. ⁓ I would say in the very early days when we were kind of putting pieces out there, I think anybody who creates something, it is a part of you. And so it is a very vulnerable thing to say like, created this from my mind, from my heart, from my passions, and I'm gonna put it in your hand. Like, are you gonna take care of it?
⁓ and so I really wrestled the first couple of years with, I would say like a lot of pride. ⁓ and my identity was very, very tethered to the work I was doing. So absolutely when I would put it in someone's hand and it didn't play out how I envisioned or how I wanted, or if I got feedback, that was not only you're so great, Kelly, there was anything but that it would tank me and I would get very defensive. ⁓ I, I would get very, very protective.
I would want to just like leave people out of it. I didn't want people to speak into it. And I very much wanted to like isolate myself and our work and the team. And I didn't want other people to speak in. And so that was something I really had to reconcile through. There was a lot of hard conversations that I had to have and just getting to a place where the people who were using what we created, I finally got to a place where I was more willing to listen and hear.
It took a lot of humility on my part. And I know one other things too, specifically through that 2020 year where the dynamic of everything just changed, it really gave me a chance to step back and just surrender it to the Lord and go, Lord, this is not even mine. Like you've called me into this place. You have given me a task and a job and I want to be obedient to that. But man, I need to let it go and I need to release this because I think anytime we try to hoard, ⁓
God can still work through that, but man, like, we're gonna miss out on what's happening. And so I really spent that year just opening my hands and it wasn't a one day thing. It was a very long process, but I feel like I was able to come back and I was able to be more open-handed. And I think with that too, I was like, let me partner with you. Here's kind of my vision, but let me also understand like what's actually happening on the ground floor. And that's why it's not working.
Let me make some tweaks so I can better support you. And so I was just in a place where I was like, I need other voices because at the end of the day, we want to create what's best for our kids and our families. And I don't want to get in the way with that. The team didn't want to get in the way with that. So we need to partner together in order to reach that point. So it was really, really hard. And I learned to even through that process is like, people are going to have opinions all day long. People are going to have feedback all day long. And some of it's going to be really, really helpful. And some of it's not. And so I would encourage anybody who's in that.
place is to take what's true, ⁓ be very self-aware about it, humble yourself and receive it, and then let the rest go and then just trust that like God's gonna keep working and God's gonna make it happen and you can just be open-handed to that.
KIDMIN U Team (34:52)
Yeah, I think one of the things that is hard for people maybe to imagine is just how personal we might take the feedback when we're the ones who are creating stuff, right? So for a lot of people listening, we probably get our curriculum from a big publisher like Lifeway or Group or David C. Cook or whatever it is that we use. And so when we hand that to our staff or we hand that to our volunteers and we get feedback on it, if it's not good feedback, I can say, well, I was the publisher.
It was, you know, it was ABC publisher and it's on them. It's their fault, you know, but when it was our idea and we made it, it's like, gosh, you know, I'm going to receive that feedback in a very different way. And it takes a lot of humility and wisdom and honor to try and really sort through that in a healthy way. ⁓ and I know, ⁓ you know, one of the challenges we faced was maybe some expectations there.
Kelli Ayotte (35:20)
Right, Not me.
KIDMIN U Team (35:46)
And this is something I had never heard anybody talk about publicly. I don't know if other churches who ⁓ create their own curriculum experience this or not. But I think on our team, one of the things we noticed, because I was up there, you know, churches who are multi-site, the people who support the other campuses, sometimes they're called central or global for us, we called it network. So I was right up there with you and having these conversations. And I think what happened is as soon as our team knew.
Kelli Ayotte (36:05)
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (36:16)
that we had invested as a church to create curriculum that is by us and for us, and we can finally make it exactly the way that we want. I think there was this expectation that we're about to get perfect curriculum. know, like finally, it's going to be everything we ever dreamed of. And the reality is, you know, even when you're creating your own stuff, it's impossible to account for every single type of kid, every single type of campus, every single type of volunteer.
You know, if I even just look at our campuses at the time, we had a wide range of different demographics, right? I mean, we had some that were in affluent areas, like high income areas. We had some that were in low income areas, where it totally different. ⁓ We had one up in the mountains and the mountain people are just their own different breed. You know, we had people in a senior living center set up tear down thing. We had...
Kelli Ayotte (36:49)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
short.
KIDMIN U Team (37:12)
Another campus that was all the way in the middle of central California, it was like a farming community. It's like to try and have one thing that works equally well in each of those environments is really hard to do. And yet I think sometimes the expectation was really high. Like we're about to get perfect material and it almost set us up to fail just based on expectations.
I mean, I don't want to like open any old wounds here, but I mean, take me into that. Like that had to be a little bit challenging. How did you, ⁓ how did you try and process that in a healthy way? Cause I think for a lot of us, that could be really discouraging. Like I put so much effort into this thing and I just want people to be excited about it, you know?
Kelli Ayotte (37:53)
Yeah,
yeah. I remember some of even the initial launch timelines were a little bit of initial tension. Like we were asked to complete kind of the first round of this curriculum by like an Easter weekend. And we, I remember at that time, you know, hiring people takes time. And so even our initial launch of the curriculum, we had envisioned we'd have a full team, but it was still just Jordan and I.
KIDMIN U Team (38:16)
Yeah.
Kelli Ayotte (38:23)
And the deadline was the deadline. And so I actually remember the first time coming in and like presenting the first round of curriculum to our team. ⁓ I think what was hard for me in that moment, and I do think it probably speaks to the expectation. I was like, we're all, we're all a team. And so I'm here to like offer my part of it. And like, we're going to be like gracious with that. Right. And I think in that moment, there was almost a separation of like, this isn't
good enough, but like the ask was still that it needed to be presented. And I even struggled on my end of like, I don't think this is the best we can do, but now we're flying the plane and building it. So how do we keep moving forward? ⁓ And so I think over time, again, kind of going back to very early on, I think we opened the gates to a lot of feedback. And I think that it's really valuable.
in any circumstance to be an individual that knows how to receive feedback and give feedback. ⁓ I like to say the phrase, you know, feedback without a solution is just an opinion. And that sounds really harsh. But like, if you give me an opinion of like, don't like red, like blue. And I say, well, give me a reason why blue would be better. But it's just a preference, then I can't actually do anything to change that. And so I think our team really had to learn how to do feedback.
KIDMIN U Team (39:40)
Mm-hmm.
Kelli Ayotte (39:47)
that was I think a huge obstacle. One, I had to learn to receive it, but I think we also had to learn to give it. ⁓ We also learned in that season, like we do have to be okay for all of us to sit in a room and remember that anything we share, it's not personal. It's at the pursuit of creating something great for our kids, and that is the heart for all of us. We were all called to ministry, kids ministry in particular, because we want kids to know Jesus.
And so if we can filter everything we're saying through that truth, then I think that gets us to a better place rather than starting to take things personal. I think another huge, really, really important piece was Jordan and I, and a team actually several times, we started actually going to campuses on the weekend. And because we would hear, hey, this piece isn't working, or hey, we need support in this area. So we would show up to the campus, stay for the services, and we would watch the curriculum play out.
And I think what that did is it did kind of like what you were saying earlier. It opened our eyes to going, ⁓ but you're not actually implementing it the way it was intended. Let me actually demonstrate for you how it's supposed to be played out. And then we'll make a decision on whether or not it's working. Then there were some things that were very eye-opening to go, you're right. That doesn't work. We need to make some changes. And so I would say it probably took us about two years as a large team to get into the rhythm of
healthy collaboration, healthy feedback rhythms, ⁓ feeling ⁓ like there was a space for us to show up on the weekend. There were times showing up on a weekend was very uncomfortable. It almost felt like the principal was coming into the classroom at school. And I would try to say like, that's not my role. Like I truly want to support. I truly want to problem solve with you. I don't want to like point my finger, but like you're doing this wrong. Like how do we get to a place where we know we're supporting each other? That took about two years time.
But I do think, yeah, when you're creating your original curriculum, I think there's ownership that everyone takes over it, not just the people creating it. And so I think that was another piece too, is people that were overseeing our ministry at the campuses, they had ownership in the curriculum because they had ownership in their job. And their ownership looked different, but I think that also influenced how we spoke to each other and how we interacted. So yeah, it took a lot of time. It took a lot of prayer. It took a lot of hard conversation. But again, I think
KIDMIN U Team (41:47)
Hmm.
Kelli Ayotte (42:08)
post COVID, we came back as a really, really strong team. I think that we were just run, we had overcome so much. And I think from 2021 to like 2024, we just got into this really incredible rhythm. I think our curriculum had gotten to a place where it was like, we know what we're doing. We had a template for how we created things and the structure. We had heard everybody's opinions. We even sat down with the full kids staff and we said,
let's nail down what your values are and what our values are. Let's land on five specific values that we share so that we know when we're giving feedback or we're creating or implementing it, we are running all of it through our five filters that we've agreed on as a team. That was a game changer. Cause that I shifted like when I give, when I give Kelly feedback, does it hit any of these five things? it doesn't. Then I'm actually not going to share it.
KIDMIN U Team (42:51)
Hmm.
Kelli Ayotte (42:59)
And so I think that shared space of we all share the same values was a huge game changer and us being able to communicate and work together.
KIDMIN U Team (43:07)
Yeah. Are you willing to share what those five values are?
Kelli Ayotte (43:10)
Yeah, I knew you ask. Okay, so authenticity was for sure one of them's. Simplicity are like easy to use, customizable, age appropriate and theologically appropriate. Because when we started, we were creating curriculum for early childhood all the way up to sixth grade. So it was a very huge span. So you talk about how do you create one video for kindergarten through sixth graders. It's hard.
⁓ And so, yeah, so those were the five specific things. And so when we'd write something, we actually had something called an advisory board that we had built. And we had a few pastors on it. We had a couple of educators on it. And so everything that our team wrote and created, we would run it through this advisory board. And even the advisory board was very aware of those five pillars and they would filter through and go, okay, it checks all the boxes or here's where it doesn't check the boxes.
And that was just another kind of quality control, another filter. And I think another way we got buy-in from our pastoral leadership to say like the curriculum that we are doing in our children's ministry is great, because I've approved it. I've read it. I've given it a thumbs up. And so that was another, I think, ⁓ moving towards just health in the overall creation of our original curriculum.
KIDMIN U Team (44:23)
That's so cool. I love that you did that. Listen, I know we're talking about some of the challenges that we faced and I know feedback was a big one. ⁓ Yeah, okay. One lesson learned on that. think even as I'm hearing this, like all these fresh things are coming up. I think just even realizing, yeah, to your point, I think it's probably too much feedback too soon. I think especially with a creative project, you do need to give enough of a runway to give it a shot before you start.
like actually trying to critique it or adjust it. You know, it's almost like I imagine a coach has a game plan, you know, and it's like you only got a few plays into the game, a couple of plays didn't work and then you scrap the whole playbook. It's like, well, hold on, like, let's, let's see, like, let's give it, you know, another quarter or two and see like, you know, how this is going before we just kind of completely change. And so I think looking back, it probably would have been really helpful for us to say,
hey, for these first six months, we're just gonna run the plays as we're being given them. And then at that point, we'll have enough experience using this stuff to really have like a good idea of what we like, we don't like, what might need to be reevaluated, whatever. Instead, it's like week one. I feel like we kind of did that. It was like, okay, how was week one? And then all of a sudden you're supposed to kind of just change all the stuff that you've already built out for time. Okay.
Kelli Ayotte (45:43)
Cough
KIDMIN U Team (45:51)
But I do wanna say, all that being said, even though we're being very real and authentic about some of the challenges we faced, the content was really good.
I think all of it was good. There are certain parts though that were I think world class. Like I just don't think visually of all the other publishers and all the other stuff that I've seen put out there and packaged. I don't know if I've ever seen anything visually that was quite as excellent or striking. It was really, really good. to get really specific on some of the deliverables that Kelly and Jordan and the team would create.
in addition to the videos that we're talking about, which by the way, there were a lot of different videos. There were teaching videos. Then there were also these pre-show videos that we would play before service starts that were just fun, know, the sort of thing you would see on YouTube and stuff like that. And we'd have different intro videos and testimony videos. Like there were a lot of things. But on top of that, we also created these little storybooks for early childhood as well. And those, I think, were some of the best things we created.
Kelli Ayotte (46:32)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (46:54)
like visually and the stories and just the way it was packaged was so fun. I actually think at some point you guys need to take those assets and turn them into a real book, like a physical book. I think people would love to have that in their homes, but the content was really, really good. I think what we learned, maybe the takeaway here is when you create your own thing and you open up feedback, maybe before you're ready, everybody's just kind of, kind of nitpick. And I know I was part of that too.
Kelli Ayotte (47:03)
Yes. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (47:23)
You know, I was the guy who essentially was representing those people at the campuses. And so a lot of times I was probably part of the problem too, cause it's like, well, hey, I want to help give feedback and I want to help make this as good as we possibly can. And some of that stuff might not have been constructive. Just looking back, it's like it, we do have to give something a fair shot before we start figuring out ⁓ what to do with it.
You mentioned in there, like even one of these factors that people don't think about is the timeline of all these things. Like how the development process is going along. ⁓ Take us into like what that rhythm was like. Like how far out were you at any given point in time? Like if I were, for instance, and here's the reason I'm bringing this up. If I were to give you feedback right now on something, how far out are you? Like how many weeks of content is already made that's done that we can't even do anything about?
Kelli Ayotte (48:14)
Yeah, so I'm trying to remember. I do remember when we got to COVID ⁓ that was actually kind of like a relief season where we we kind of made this decision of can we run old series for a few months so that we can catch up because we were we were very close. I think our goal and our hope was always to be able to deliver a series to a campus about a month before. And I think at that
It was maybe two weeks. And so it was very close. And we understood like, you don't have time to prep or if you want to decorate a stage or train your team or send out materials, like it just wasn't enough time. And we wanted to get to that month. So 2020, we ⁓ just kept creating, we ran some old series. So when we came back and our project manager on the team, she was incredible. Like she came in and she was like, this isn't working.
I'm going create a schedule like, and she's one of, she's one of my closest friends now. ⁓ but we basically got to a place where every series we created was about six weeks. Most of them were six weeks each. It took our team 13 weeks to create. So if I go back, I'm like, I can't remember like what it looks like, but we did get to a place where we were able to deliver everything a month before at minimum, sometimes even more than that, but it took 13 weeks.
KIDMIN U Team (49:38)
⁓ good.
Kelli Ayotte (49:40)
It took 13 weeks and our team was on a waterfall. like our writer would start first and then the next week when someone else would start and then someone else would start. So each team member had 13 weeks to create six weeks of curriculum that included the writing, the revisions, the designs, the video production, the edit, full package delivery into Google drive was a 13 week process for every series. And we got to that place where it was a month before that we were able to share everything with the team. So that's where we got. And yeah, we got into that really great rhythm, which I think
again, was great for our campuses. It was great for us because we were able to have more oversight of like where we were going and everything was just like so, so scheduled out and it was really helpful. It was a lot, but it was helpful.
KIDMIN U Team (50:22)
Yeah, goodness. Okay, so I forgot about that. I mean, I must have known at some point, but I forgot like how much time it would take relative to the length of the series. I didn't know the 13 week versus six week thing. Obviously, like somebody listening says, hey, that's not sustainable. How in the world do you like keep that going? How did you on the back end? How did you make that work? Was that just a matter of like starting far enough out in advance where like, even though the gap is shrinking, like you planned for it over time?
How'd you do that?
Kelli Ayotte (50:52)
Yeah. And I think it was specifically the way that we staggered each team member. So we didn't all start at the same time. So that staggering was like, you know, our writer would start on the next series, but our designer and editor were still finishing the series before. so there were at, at any given point, there was like a point in that cycle where like three series were simultaneously being created ⁓ at different pieces. But yeah, our project manager basically like she did the math.
KIDMIN U Team (51:15)
Hmm.
Kelli Ayotte (51:21)
And she was like, if we do it in 13 weeks, we will never catch up on ourselves. Now, our end goal was that we created a three year package. And so we ended up finishing all three years of the curriculum. And the goal was always once we finished the three years, we'll recycle that three year curriculum. And the idea was, you if we have a kid who is, you know, TK or pre-kindergarten.
⁓ And if they're in our ministry from that point till sixth grade, they'll go through our curriculum two, three times. And even though it's the same, they'll take away new and different truths because they're at a different age developmentally. So that was always the goal was just to finish that three years. And we did get to that point where we completed it. And then in addition to going through the Bible, we did some off series about the gospel or Christmas and Easter and things like that. ⁓ But yeah, it was a lot of math and that's what we realized.
13 weeks was the magic number.
KIDMIN U Team (52:17)
Yeah. Okay. So you mentioned a three year scope and sequence, which I think is pretty standard. I think most publishers are doing that. ⁓ every now and then you get somebody who goes totally rogue and does two years and they're, they're the wild ones, but three years is pretty normal. ⁓ I'm curious, do you like given the state of where kids are at these days and church engagement and all that stuff, you know, on paper, it makes sense to do three years.
Kelli Ayotte (52:29)
Yeah, yeah, it's
KIDMIN U Team (52:47)
in elementary, go through it twice, whatever. Do you still feel like a scope and sequence that long is the play? Because I'm one of these like crazy, crazy, crazy guys. And I know so many people are not going to agree with me. You probably don't agree with me either. But I actually think there's value in doing a one year scope and sequence and repeating it a bunch and helping kids get really, really clear specifically on the story of God. Because sometimes I feel like it's so spread out that kids lose their place in that. And so
Kelli Ayotte (53:04)
Yeah. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (53:16)
Yeah, they don't really know how all the pieces fit or how all the things that happen in the Old Testament really are pointing to Jesus. But if they are a little bit more condensed like that, they can see it better. the more cycles we go through it, the deeper it's like embedded in their theology and their worldview. ⁓ I know that's an extreme take. So I don't expect you to be in the one year camp. But do you still feel like if you were to start from scratch today, is three years still the move?
Kelli Ayotte (53:39)
Yeah.
I don't think it is. think I'm probably where you're at. I think one year is really valuable. I also think four week series work better than six weeks just because of our calendar. think to what was always, yeah, the six week thing is like you kind of start and end on wild dates and things like that. So was a little bit tricky. We chose six weeks because we thought we're putting all this energy and effort into the design and the brand and the sets.
Four weeks is such a short amount of time, but I do think one year, four weeks, but what I would say if you have the capacity, the resources, and the ability is not to repeat it, but repackage it. So maybe it looks different the next year, or maybe you're pulling this version of the stories year one, and you're still going in order year two, but you're pulling some other stories with still kind of the hope that you're seeing the through line of Jesus. But I definitely think one year.
four week series. It's simple for the kids that don't attend all the time or a kid that jumps in in the middle of the year. You're not in like a random part of scripture. And I think repetition for kids and adults is very important. And so to know that like every year we will go through the story of Genesis. I think that's really, really valuable. I think it's a lot more work and you probably have to work at a different pace. But I do think the one year for week is probably what I lean more towards.
KIDMIN U Team (55:07)
Yeah, honestly, that sounds so nice and neat if we're able to pull that sort of thing off. Because the reality is, you're trying to do the story, the passage justice ⁓ and make sure a series makes sense in terms of what stories are part of it. At the same time, you also have your functional hat that you're trying to wear as a church leader of like, it would be nice if it was just all of March was this one series. And then in April, we start a new one. ⁓
Kelli Ayotte (55:10)
Yes. Right.
Perfect.
KIDMIN U Team (55:36)
You know, but it doesn't always work out that well. I don't think people realize how many hard decisions have to be made when you're doing curriculum, not just the length of your series or what Bible story you select. Like every little piece is a decision that someone somewhere had to make. and it might seem small, but these are things we probably spent a lot of time talking about and figuring out what do we want to do? Do we believe in this? ⁓ I think.
I don't know exactly when this will come out in relation to the other podcast episodes, but we had a gal on who works with a publisher for David C Cook has done stuff for the wanna before. And she was part of the team that was creating wonder Inc. So before it went live, she was part of that founding team that's building all this stuff behind the scenes before anybody knows about it. And I imagine they were doing a lot of the same stuff that we were. They're making all the same decisions, trying to really figure out.
Kelli Ayotte (56:23)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (56:30)
What do we believe in? What do we want this to look like? All of that. I think people would be blown away if they see it. And I think when we get off the call, I've got a pretty wild curriculum idea I want to run by you. I'm not ready to share it publicly. Not ready to share it publicly. But some exciting things maybe in the works. We'll see. OK. One thing we talked about a lot at the time was really just figuring out what the future was going to look like. So.
Kelli Ayotte (56:41)
Okay, okay, I'm excited.
Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (56:59)
Yeah, we had a vision of first three years, we're creating everything from scratch. Then we're kind of just maintaining it after that. And we're giving it maybe a fresh paint job, know, sprucing up activities, you know, we'll refresh it every time, but using the same stuff. And I know now what Sandals is doing and you were part of the decision to do is use more of a kit as well. So it's not that the content that was created will never be used again. I imagine that'll be part of the, the arsenal moving forward.
But now there's more stuff that comes from a publisher that gets customized. If there's a church listening who's on the fence right now thinking, ⁓ do I buy stuff from ABC publisher and customize it, have a team that's built around like creating assets around that skeleton that's already made, or do I have a team that does what we're talking about and do everything from scratch? What advice would you give them?
Kelli Ayotte (57:41)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (57:54)
And I know it's not a black and white do this or that, but what would you tell them to be thinking through?
Kelli Ayotte (57:58)
Yeah, so I don't think it's the same answer across the board. I think we go back to that question as like, if you are going to take the leap and create your own curriculum, what's the gap that you're filling? I think when we were asking that question in 2015, ⁓ church curriculum existed, but not at the level that it exists now. And I think the quality and the excellence over the last 10 years has grown significantly. And there's some really great curriculum. And like you mentioned, like Sandals is now using
curriculum, outside curriculum. And it's great. And what's really cool about the curriculum we're using, there are no videos. We actually moved away from video curriculum, which I think is another factor post 2020, where kids are burnt out on videos. And so it's all live teaching. And when we first kind of took that leap, it felt daunting, but I think there's a lot of value in the live teaching aspect. So I do think you have to answer the question is like, are we going to bring something to the table that is unique and necessary and needed?
But what I would say too is it's really important to think of your ministry as a whole. I think for us, creating curriculum was like my favorite time in ministry. It was so fun. It was so creative. But after ⁓ we finished our project, I actually stepped into a different role in children's ministry, which kind of gave me a new perspective on the ministry as a whole. And I realized, my goodness, there are so many other things that I think are valuable in ministry.
⁓ that also require a lot of work and a lot of resources. But you also have to look at what's gonna make the greatest impact. What's the best return of investment? Is it that you've created original curriculum or is it that you've created a space where parents can connect with other parents and community and so you're using your hours and your team's resources to create that space midweek on your campus? And so I think you also just need to look at kind of the list of the things that are necessary to serve your church well.
and then decide where do we put our resources, where do we put our team, where do we put our gifts and our talents and our skills, and what's the need that we actually need to meet. And I think that actually helps you answer the question, because creating curriculum is hard work and it's fun and it's great and it's rewarding and it was very valuable. But then I think our church did move into a season where that wasn't necessary anymore. And I think we had other things that were ⁓ rising to the top in terms of value and what we needed. And so it also might be, we'll do it for a little bit of time.
but it won't be forever. But I do think you just need to answer the question is like, we bringing something new? And is that the biggest need right now? Or is there a need that we actually need to address?
KIDMIN U Team (1:00:34)
And new for the sake of new isn't the right mindset either right? So what I hear you saying is that in each season there might be a different answer for this It's not even church by church. It was like even at Sandals. There was a time where was appropriate I don't think anybody questioned that this is what we're supposed to do right now and then it's okay if Another season comes where that's not supposed to be at the forefront anymore. That's okay ⁓ and so the answer
Kelli Ayotte (1:00:43)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (1:01:00)
will vary and one thing I will point out too, you mentioned the investment that's required and I'm not going to tell people the dollar amount. I'm not. But for people listening, you can do your own math. I just want you to think about like some things worth considering too, right? That was seven people on the team. So think about how much does seven people get paid for the course of a year? Think about the tech that's involved in terms of cameras, lighting, all that equipment. Think about sets.
Kelli Ayotte (1:01:08)
Yeah, don't.
KIDMIN U Team (1:01:28)
and things like that and random other things that you're investing in. It was no small thing. And I think actually more than anything else, I don't bring that up to say it's so expensive. Don't do that. I actually think I'm bringing that up to say at that time it was so worth it to us that we were willing to invest that. And also how cool that we had a senior leadership team that said, Hey, I see what the bottom line is on the dollars and cents, but it still makes sense for us to go after this because this is really important to us. But listen,
Kelli Ayotte (1:01:38)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (1:01:58)
If that's not your answer, if you don't have that same conviction, then pay attention to that. I think that that's what I hear you saying right there is, count the cost and then ask yourself, how worth it is it to us to do that? Because for some churches, the answer might be, heck yeah, let's go for it. And for other churches, it might say, you know what, maybe it's not the priority right now. In a couple of years, we'll revisit and see if that's different. ⁓ So there are, there are a lot of things here. Okay.
Kelli Ayotte (1:02:01)
Mm-hmm.
Absolutely.
KIDMIN U Team (1:02:26)
I wasn't planning on asking you this, partially because up until now I didn't even think that this would be something you're open to, but you mentioned you were part of the decision to essentially move to a different curriculum that wasn't video based. I didn't know that actually, right? So I haven't been at Sandals for a little while, so I didn't know that. That's different. I have a hot take. I actually think video is on life support in kids ministry. I think there was an era that we both did ministry in.
Kelli Ayotte (1:02:28)
Okay.
Yeah. Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (1:02:56)
where video was at the center of every kid's mystery, probably in the country. And it felt like when I was looking at publishers to commit to, the only real thing I was looking at was their video. Because I could customize the lesson plan. I could customize some of the graphics if I really wanted to. What I didn't always have the means to customize was the video. So I had to really like the video. And I think also being at a multi-site church,
Kelli Ayotte (1:03:12)
right.
KIDMIN U Team (1:03:24)
we were of the mind that we wanted to be consistent from one location to another and one service to another. I didn't have to wonder what was being taught. I knew exactly what it was. And I knew the standard too, right? ⁓ I happen to believe though that this is a different era. And I think there might be some people who are still holding onto the video because it's comfortable and it's what we know. And it's just familiar.
Kelli Ayotte (1:03:32)
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (1:03:50)
But I see a future that is way more built around live teaching than that. And I just had a conversation with a church in the Southern California area that's like, they've got more than 20,000 people there, 12 locations, and their kids person was saying, I don't know about video, but also as a big church with all these locations, like I'm a little nervous to move away from it. But this is a thing we're all thinking through. Tell me your thoughts on that. What led to that change? Because so much, if I were to look at,
what you guys built, I think it was very video heavy and you did it really, really well. So for you to come to this conclusion and maybe change your mind on something, that's a big deal. I'm so surprised by that. Take me into like how that all happened.
Kelli Ayotte (1:04:22)
Yes.
Yeah.
So we had run our three-year scope and cycle twice. So we did the twice thing and I was even able to look at it and go, it's feeling old. you know, the joke is that over the years we were producing it, my hair was like eight different colors. And so it'd be like a video of me from two years ago and then a video of me from six years ago doing worship and it...
KIDMIN U Team (1:04:48)
Really?
Ha ha ha.
Kelli Ayotte (1:05:01)
Yeah, I was like, we've run through this. These kids are remembering it. I think that we need to move to something fresh. And the hope was that our team would always stay intact and we would kind of just use the same content, but repackage it so that it was fresh and it was new, but the curriculum was written. ⁓ Because of the shift in my role and we didn't have the team anymore, we didn't have the resources to continue creating original curriculum. So we came to the point, it was probably a year before we knew the end date. ⁓
of our curriculum, we knew like we're gonna have to make a decision. To be very honest, personally, it was a very painful process. And I tried really hard, the hardest I could to separate myself, but it did feel like the end of an era. And it was coming to a close. And I didn't think I would have as much trouble with it as I did. But to be honest, I did.
And again, I was like, okay, I can't let the personal cloud this decision that, you know, I was in the position where I had to make a decision, which was so fascinating. so myself and several other people, we, you know, went through a lot of other curriculums. We looked at a lot of the videos. We threw stuff out because of the videos that we looked at. Okay, if we did this one, what we'd have to adapt. And it was actually one of my team members who brought this curriculum to the table.
live teaching. And my initial response was like, absolutely not. We have 14 campuses. They're all over the place. How do we maintain quality control? Who's going to teach every single week, multiple surfaces, multiple spaces? This is early childhood elementary. And so I really, really wrestled with that for probably a lot of the same reasons as you were just sharing. But we got to a place where the curriculum itself was really sound.
And still, even though we were changing curriculum, that value of authenticity was still a value. And it was a curriculum that I felt really still brought that to the table and allowed us to ⁓ still include that into the weekend experience. so, yeah, so prayed over it, talked through it, talked through logistics.
We ended up sharing it with the team and I was ready for the team to be like, what are you doing? But honestly, they received it really well. I think everyone was ready for something new and something different and a fresh start. And they were willing because we talked about it. Preparation is very important. I didn't give them two weeks to decide this. Like this was like six months before we launched where we shared it. And we basically built out a timeline.
of like, every month up to launch, this is what we need to do. We need to train your team, let your team know, cast a vision, give them resources, do some practice runs, do a gathering. We had it all laid out really, really well. And so it's been running now for six months and it's been incredible. So if there are any multi-site churches or churches that are like, do I do live teaching?
I think what has been so great is obviously, the face-to-face with the kids to have someone live on stage interacting with them, especially our younger kids. I think that's really, really important developmentally. And I think we've seen kids engage in a new and a different way. I do think they are so inundated with video, not only in church, but in school and on YouTube. Yes, kids love video, but let's bring something fresh and something different to the experience.
And also I think it's involved our team members, our staff members, our volunteers in ways that they never were involved before. Cause again, like we built a video. was a 30 minute video. Other than someone hosting and facilitating on stage, like we don't really need anybody else on stage, but now we have these people that, you know, we're leading small groups, but we're seeing, my goodness, you're an incredible storyteller. And now they're getting to serve in a new capacity that they didn't before. And it's just been really beautiful to see.
the people that you're honestly surprised by. You're you're teaching the story? I never would have guessed, but you're so great at it and it brings them joy. ⁓ So yeah, so it was a struggle for a while, but ⁓ I'm really, really grateful for it. We made the change, the change needed to happen, and I think it's been a lot of positive feedback.
KIDMIN U Team (1:09:15)
It's cool to see how people step up to, you know, I tell this story years ago where, we weren't doing video teaching at the time, but this is the church I grew up in. worked there on staff for seven years. ⁓ all this stuff. And we noticed that, ⁓ we did large group teaching. we get all of our elementary together. We'd have one of our, one of a handful of really great storytellers tell the story. And then they go back into their classrooms and be with their small group leaders and all that.
⁓ and what we noticed was when a kid had a question, they would come up to me or the kid's pastor or one of the storytellers. What they weren't doing is going and seeking out their small group leader. And that was a problem to us. We actually felt convicted. Like I could be selfish and say, how fun is it that all these kids are coming to me, but that's, it's not about me. I actually want to reinforce the relationship with their leader. And so even though we had a model that was working, we decided to move that live teaching into classrooms.
Kelli Ayotte (1:09:48)
Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (1:10:13)
And at any given service, we had 13 different classrooms that needed a story and four services on the weekend. What is that? Like 52 different, like live stories that are being taught on any given weekend. Logistically, it looked like a nightmare and our leaders were really intimidated because they started thinking, well, I'm not the pastor, I'm not this person, how am gonna do it that way? And we had to tell them, it wasn't even about that.
Kelli Ayotte (1:10:31)
short.
KIDMIN U Team (1:10:39)
I remember in our training, I just sensed there was so much doubt in the room. And so I just went totally off script and I'm glad this worked out because this, this was risky and it could have backfired. But I just went around and I asked him and I said, ⁓ tell me what was the most wise piece of advice you've ever heard? Like what's the wisest thing you've ever heard? And people went around the room. They, you know, they shared what it was and a lot of different really cool nuggets. And then I went around to the same people and I said, who told you that? And I was expecting.
Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, Jesus, you know? Instead, every single answer was my mom, my dad, my coach, my teacher, my uncle.
KIDMIN U Team (1:11:23)
every single one.
with somebody they had a personal connection with. And I said, guys, did you notice what just happened? It's not about your talent. It's actually about the relational foundation that you have with your kids. ⁓ That's the thing that's actually going to be memorable to kids. It's what's gonna open the door to meaningful life change. And I think even if you do large group teaching, that same dynamic plays. You've got a real person at the front of the room. And I always say, and I know this might,
Kelli Ayotte (1:11:36)
Yes.
KIDMIN U Team (1:11:52)
Not everybody agrees with this. This actually might be hard to hear as somebody who's made so many amazing videos, but I've always felt like an average storyteller might still be more engaging than a good video. Like if you have a really great video, that might be different, but like most, most things you're going to get from a publisher are good at best. Maybe there's a lot of questionable things out there. And I just think if you just have even a semi-competent storyteller who just loves Jesus and loves kids that
Kelli Ayotte (1:12:03)
for sure.
pressure.
KIDMIN U Team (1:12:22)
human connection is so much more valuable. And I really believe that the future is gonna incorporate a lot more live teaching. And I think what could be really exciting is it opens the door for other people to create curriculum who would have otherwise said, well, I don't have a video team. I don't have a studio. So therefore I can't make a curriculum all of a sudden. If it's about lesson plans, a lot of people can. A lot of people could create really great curriculum out there.
Kelli Ayotte (1:12:40)
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (1:12:51)
who may not have the means or the chops to create videos like somebody like Jordan could. ⁓ So I think it's really interesting and I'm intrigued about the future of it. And I know for that pastor that I referenced a minute ago at a really large church with lots of campuses, ⁓ this is something they're thinking through. And it's scary, it feels risky to move away from video because it's safe and familiar. And also like we were talking about before.
Kelli Ayotte (1:12:58)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (1:13:20)
If it stinks, I can point to the video and say, you know, I just wasn't a good video. But if we do live teaching and it doesn't work the way that we want, like the responsibility is on us to figure out what to do about that. ⁓ Again, it's not as comfortable. It's definitely not as safe. And so I'm intrigued to see kind of, kind of where things go. Well, Kelly, we are coming up on time here. We've had an amazing conversation. I'd love to have you back at some point because I feel like
Kelli Ayotte (1:13:40)
Absolutely.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (1:13:47)
who kind of just scratched the surface of all of this stuff. I think people are really gonna love this. ⁓ For those who want to get in touch with you, learn more about what you do, where would you point them? And don't forget to talk about your book because Kelly just wrote a book and it's super fun.
Kelli Ayotte (1:14:03)
Okay, so ⁓ I'm on Instagram just my first and last name at Kelly I if you have any more questions or want to reach out If you want to see any of the curriculum that we created we are on YouTube. So it's YouTube comm Slash Sandals kids ⁓ And yeah, so I came out with a book four months ago. It's available on Amazon. It's called I am Kelphaba ⁓ So if you're a fan of the wicked
KIDMIN U Team (1:14:26)
you
Kelli Ayotte (1:14:27)
movies at all. It's a little nod to the character alpha, but it makes sense if you read the book. But the book is really about my 15 years in ministry, lessons learned, failures, successes, ⁓ my personal professional overcoming insecurity. ⁓ And for our listeners, I actually stepped out of vocational ministry this last September, not for any negative reason. I'm doing ministry in different ways, but stepping off of staff.
KIDMIN U Team (1:14:30)
Yeah.
Kelli Ayotte (1:14:54)
⁓ And yeah, it's just kind of my story on one spot of that journey and kind of what God did through all those years.
KIDMIN U Team (1:15:02)
Yeah, that's so exciting. And I imagine that had to be probably really rewarding to wrap up a season like that and to almost capture all of that too, just to put a bow on like that season of your life and to honor it and to take time to look at all of it and just be grateful for it. So how cool. Kelly, thank you for coming on. This has been so fun. And for everybody who's listening, thank you for joining us. Thank you for sticking with us all the way to the end. We'll see you next time.
