Kim Botto: Building an Inclusive Kids Ministry
In this episode, we sit down with Kim Botto to talk about what it really looks like to build kids ministry environments where every child and every family feels seen, safe, and supported. Drawing from decades of experience as a kids pastor, adoptive mom, and advocate, Kim shares powerful insights on foster care, adoption, trauma-informed ministry, and disability inclusion.
Together, we unpack why so many families feel overlooked by the church and how kids ministry leaders have a unique opportunity to change that. Kim offers practical, approachable steps for churches of any size to become more inclusive, whether that means supporting foster families, training volunteers to understand trauma, or creating environments where kids with disabilities can truly belong—not just be accommodated.
This conversation is both deeply personal and incredibly practical. If you want to build a ministry that reflects the heart of Jesus by welcoming every child and empowering every family, this episode will give you the vision and the tools to start.
Quick Links
Transcript
KIDMIN U Team (00:00)
Well, Kim, welcome to the podcast.
Kim Botto (00:01)
Thanks, I'm glad to be here, Jeremy.
KIDMIN U Team (00:03)
Now, I've been following you for a long time and I think part of it is because you follow some topics that are really interesting to me and also near and dear to my heart. You talk about foster care and adoption and I'm sure we'll talk about this later, but our family adopted a baby girl and even my baby sister, like years ago we adopted her and so this is a huge part of our story. But, I'd love for you to introduce yourself a little bit to our audience and share what you're up to these days.
Kim Botto (00:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so I'm a long time kids and student pastor. didn't, I was a business major, but then God called me to ministry. So that's what I did for decades. My husband and I have five kids. The youngest two were adopted from an orphanage in Ukraine. And one of them was 10 when she came home and the other one was 15 when she came home. And then I also have 11 grandkids that all live in town.
from nine months to 11 years. So that is so fun. They can ride their bikes to our house. So I'm spending a lot of, yes, what am I doing these days? I'm spending a lot of time with them. But then I also, my passion is creating spaces in the church where every kid can find their place, their people and their purpose.
And I think the church should be the safest place. And for a lot of kids, it's not. And so I believe that the call in my life is to help raise awareness on how we can provide spaces where kids can feel safe, where they can hear about Jesus in a language they can understand, have fun with their peers, go to a quiet room if they need to. So that's what I'm doing now. I work with a lot of churches.
KIDMIN U Team (01:13)
Yeah.
Kim Botto (01:36)
I do some speaking, yeah, and I wrote a book. So that's kind of where I am now.
KIDMIN U Team (01:41)
Incredible. Okay. One of the things I love to do is talk about the very beginning, kind of like your origin story. I'm fascinated with how things start, how people got to the places that they are. We see Kim Botto now and all of the amazing things you do. You're an author, speaker, all of these amazing things. How'd you end up from being a business major getting involved with kids ministry? What was the story there?
Kim Botto (02:04)
I have always loved kids, always. My mother was a Sunday school teacher. I always helped her. I worked vacation Bible school. I volunteered to vacation Bible school. And I was always the one, if they had kids who weren't complying, kids who had more energy than maybe the leader wanted to deal with, I got those kids, which I loved. I didn't realize until I was like in my 40s that not everybody liked those kids. So I always liked children.
⁓ Even in college, I volunteered with a ministry where we mentored kids who are living in poverty. But I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, so I did what a lot of people do when you don't know what you want to do. I majored in business. But even then, I was required to do volunteer work. And it was always with kids and typically with kids who were living in poverty or were disabled, know, kids who were different, not your typical kid. So I did business for a while.
had my first kid, stayed at home, still volunteering at my church, working with organizations in Cincinnati that worked with kids living in poverty. So you see there's a through line throughout. And finally, my cousin actually said to me, Kim, when are you going to start letting people in on this that you're called to ministry? And I I'm not called to ministry. And she said, oh, let's talk about that.
Me and I still, was years ago, we were sitting at lunch, a little restaurant in Northern Kentucky. And so that's when I started really taking it to the Lord and realizing that he was calling me to do this. And so I went to seminary because part of my background is that you have to have an education to do whatever, which actually isn't true, but that's what I thought. So I went to seminary and then went to church, went to work.
part, very part time at a little church in my town. So that's how I started and I love it. Gosh, I think being a children's pastor, youth pastor is the best job ever.
KIDMIN U Team (04:01)
Yeah, I think it's incredibly hard, but there's nothing more rewarding. Yeah.
Kim Botto (04:05)
⁓
yeah. I was just on a call with about 50 kids ministry leaders, a Zoom call that I do once a month. And that's what I told them. said, kids ministry is so complex. I mean, you're caring for infants, you're caring for preteens, you're caring for volunteers of all ages. You're supporting parents. There's just such a...
KIDMIN U Team (04:18)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (04:29)
wide range of things that you're doing. And it's complex because when you're taking care of other people's kids, there's safety issues. There's all kinds of logistics. Plus, you want them to know about the hope that they're only going to find in Jesus. So yeah, it's a lot. I also think though, I mean, I look at people serving in other ministries and I think, aw, you're missing out on all the good stuff.
KIDMIN U Team (04:53)
Okay, so I completely agree with all of this. In fact, I love the fact that you use the word complex because that's what I use too. I think for a long time, I used to say it's the hardest ministry in the church and it might be, but I think the better term maybe that I've adopted now is complex because if you're going to be a kid's pastor,
Kim Botto (05:01)
yeah.
Yes.
KIDMIN U Team (05:12)
There are so many different things you have to manage, so many different things you have to juggle. You know, was thinking about this the other day, even just the simple logistics of like, if you're a youth pastor, you only have to really figure out what happens in one room. You've got one experience that you're designing. By definition in kids ministry, even if you're a small church, you've got two or three different classrooms that are happening, which means you've got two or three services that are happening at any given actual service.
Kim Botto (05:28)
Right.
correct.
Correct.
KIDMIN U Team (05:40)
And then you scale
Kim Botto (05:40)
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (05:41)
that up, you know, however large your church is, however many classrooms you are. Like it's a lot. You've got to be an expert in childhood development. You've got to be a parenting expert. You've got to be good with curriculum. You've got to be a communicator. You've got to be a part-time therapist, ⁓ event planner, like you name it. It's just so many hats that you have to wear. And so I think it's easy as a kids ministry leader to get tired, to get maybe on the edge of burnout if you're not careful, but
Kim Botto (05:54)
Right. Right. Right.
KIDMIN U Team (06:09)
On the other side of it is probably what I believe is the most rewarding thing in the church. Like everything else just doesn't seem quite as fun to me, honestly. I think Kid's Mystery is special in that way. You work really hard, but you also play really hard too. And I love that part of it.
Kim Botto (06:19)
I I agree.
But, but you know, I want to say too, if you are tired, think of all the awesome things about children's ministry and let's spread the joy and link arms with somebody who isn't currently serving and allow them to use their gifts, which will then help you because then they're doing maybe something you don't like. And you know, I used to think, I can't ask anybody to do that. I,
I hate cleaning the resource room. I'm not gonna ask somebody to do that. But I actually, I was just telling somebody about this. This was way when I was getting started and I actually told my pastor, I think I'm done. I think I can't do it. And he's like, well, so what, like what's the thing? And I go, the resource closet. It's just a little closet. I said, every time I go in there, my heart rate goes up. He goes, well, maybe you just need to pray that somebody will help you. I'm like, who wants to do that? But then I prayed.
The next day, Donna Daniels, who is this sweet little old lady, probably my age when I am now, but the sweet little old lady in the church, she called me and she said, I was just looking in your resource closet the other day and well, it looks like it needs some love. Can I do that for you? Well, she ended up coming up every week and she had a little clipboard where she put stuff that I was out of. I then would buy her treats. She then started getting other
KIDMIN U Team (07:19)
you
Kim Botto (07:41)
little ladies to help her with it. So that's my encouragement. If you're feeling overwhelmed, then start thinking about tasks that you do, things that you do that other people could do. Because that's why we get burnt out. We're doing stuff that we shouldn't be doing that somebody else should be doing.
KIDMIN U Team (07:52)
Yeah. Yeah.
One of the beautiful things about kids ministry leaders and also one of the challenges we face all in one thing Is that I don't know that there's any other Like profile of person on church staff who works harder and is more selfless than kids ministry leaders I think you look at most people in this type of job. It's people who work their tail off They do the things that are unseen. They never complain. In fact, that's honestly I think why we have such a hard time advocating for ourselves when we're
trying
to lead up is because we often are like, I just want to be a good soldier. I want to be faithful. And I think part of that comes with the audience we serve. We serve kids. And so we just, you end up with these people who have a huge heart who just hustle, hustle, hustle. And the last thing they think about oftentimes is asking for help. And in your situation, I love the fact that like you just prayed to the Lord. And even before you had to ask for it, he blessed you with it anyway. He loves to work that way too. Yeah.
Kim Botto (08:50)
Yeah, here comes Dona Daniels. That's right.
KIDMIN U Team (08:54)
I would love to talk about your initiatives and everything you do for foster care and adoption. And maybe as we do, I'm curious, what sparked all of that? Where did that start?
Kim Botto (09:05)
I always wanted to adopt. I always thought that would be part of our story. And then Mark and I got married and he really didn't share the same vision for it because he didn't know that he could love a kid that didn't carry his DNA. Then it so happened that somebody that I really didn't know very well at all,
called and she knew though that I was involved in the foster community, even though we weren't foster parents, and asked if I knew anybody to, they were in the middle of an adoption. The birth mom was getting ready to have the baby and they needed some place in Kentucky for this kid to live. And so, made some calls. Turned out it was a private adoption. So you didn't need to be licensed foster parents. So we said, we'll do it. And so we brought this sweet little baby, Joey, into our house. Gosh, Joey's probably 22 now. And
It was during that that God showed my husband that, ⁓ I can love a kid like my own that doesn't share my DNA. And so it was after that that we began the journey to adopt and we chose Ukraine because our kids had just gotten back. They were in high school, had just gotten back from a mission trip to Ukraine and Mark's sister and husband had worked in orphanages in Ukraine for years.
So we prayed for orphans in Ukraine. It just seemed to make sense then that we would adopt a child from Ukraine. And so that's what we did. So we brought Anastasia home when she was 10. And so as an adoptive mom, you know, I thought I was a pretty, we thought we were pretty awesome parents. We had three kids that were doing pretty good. We thought, this could be a piece of cake. And what we learned was because Anastasia's past had an impact on her beliefs right now.
It had an impact on her behavior. And I saw how she was misunderstood. Not because of anything she was doing wrong, but just she was responding based on her past experiences. And so that's when I started getting trained in trauma informed care and TBRI training. And then I'm like, wait, the church needs this. So I was very blessed.
to be leading a large kids and student team. So we started training them on trauma-informed principles and some of them went to multi-day trainings. But if you're listening, you don't have to do that. You don't need to go for weeks. We also learned that these principles work with kids who are disabled or kids whose brains are wired differently, because it's all based on connection and relationship. And it's not on fixing the kid, it's not on stopping the behavior, it's about
strengthening your relationship and connection so then you can work to help coach them and provide the safe environment for them to learn about Jesus. So that's how we got started in that and then it bled into the work that I was doing at the church that I was at.
KIDMIN U Team (11:48)
Yeah. Okay, how old were the kids at the time? Like each of them when you adopted them?
Kim Botto (11:52)
Our youngest was 10 and then Sasha was almost 16. And so as you can imagine, they had all kinds of stuff. But see, I thought, oh, well now they're in the safe environment. We live on this quiet little cul-de-sac in this super little safe little town. But their bodies were still was... Their bodies were telling them you are not safe because there have been so many years that they weren't safe.
KIDMIN U Team (11:57)
Wow. Yeah.
Kim Botto (12:16)
their bodies and their brains were also telling them you can't trust adults. I mean, I think I'm pretty trustworthy, worthy, but they didn't know it. So it had to be my job to earn their trust. And I think for some adults, that's a really hard thing. It's like, well, why wouldn't they trust me? I'm like, well, they don't trust you because up to this point, most of the adults that have been there to care for them.
have not cared for them well and in fact may have hurt them. yeah, so what an honor though. And know, Anastasia, she's coming for dinner tonight. She's 30, she has her own apartment. And it's, yeah, it's been an amazing journey. And I'll say too, like, so Jeremy, I know that you have adopted a child also and people will say, I can never do that. Well, okay.
KIDMIN U Team (12:59)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (13:00)
But, really? Okay. But the Bible says to care for widows and orphans, it doesn't say care for them by bringing them into your home 24 hours a day, seven days a week, forever. It says care for them. So I think that's where each of us need to figure out what does care look like. It might be that you support a foster family by mowing their lawn all summer.
You know, it might be, you know, I had people that would just drop off meals to us when we were having a hard time. There's all kinds of ways that you can care for vulnerable kids.
KIDMIN U Team (13:31)
Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I think one of the things I really appreciate and something that is a big part of our story as a family is really the church that we've been at the last few years where I worked and now it's just my home church. I don't work there. It's just my home church. But foster care and adoption is a big part of everything they do. Our pastor, two of his four kids were foster kids that they have now adopted in their home.
And so bless him, he's got four boys under the age of five. It is a wild home over there. we're, you know, most of my experience is kind of with like larger churches, but this was a church plant. And so it's a little bit, a scale is a little bit different, but even in our not so large church, I think we have 12 foster families currently, and a good number of those have adopted as well. And so
Kim Botto (13:59)
Yeah, yeah, bless him, yeah.
Amazing.
KIDMIN U Team (14:20)
through some of those connections, ⁓ like there's a whole long God story there, but through some of those connections is how we, who weren't even looking at adoption, ended up being presented with this wonderful opportunity to adopt this little baby girl. And she's the biggest blessing ever. At the time of recording this, her first birthday was two days ago. So she's a one-year-old now, a big bad one-year-old with the cutest little cheeks in the world. But listen, to your point,
Kim Botto (14:33)
Mm-hmm.
Wow. Oh, wow.
KIDMIN U Team (14:45)
There are so many different ways to support these families. you know, one of the things we do in our church, have a couple different ways. We've got something we call wraparound care, and then we've got respite care. Respite, I think people know about, people can get certified and licensed to essentially either, I guess, in the most simple terms, you can babysit or have them overnight if a family is traveling out of town. Like this is an approved safe person that the state
Kim Botto (14:48)
Right.
Right?
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (15:10)
approves of that they can watch. So it's great when you can have some respite workers to help those families and provide support. But not everybody's willing or able to commit to that. I get that. And so we've got wraparound care. And so there's different teams you could sign up for. So for each of our foster families, you can sign up either to be a prayer partner for that, that group, and you pray for them. You can also be on their like meals team where a couple times a month, they'll bring a meal to you for your family. ⁓
Kim Botto (15:38)
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (15:38)
We've
got like a babysitting team. So if mom and dad need like a date night or something like that. So like this has become an actual ministry where people can volunteer and say, you know what, maybe it's not my time to adopt a child in my home or foster, but we all can help somehow. And so it's been really cool because even though we've got 12 families who foster, we've got like a ton of people who support them and rally around them. And it takes a village to raise a child.
Kim Botto (15:41)
Mm-hmm.
Here we can.
Sure.
KIDMIN U Team (16:06)
I'm curious like in your neck of the woods and what you're involved in, like what are some other practical ways that churches can actually get involved? Because I think a lot of people think I either foster a child or I can't do anything, but clearly that's not the case. What can we do?
Kim Botto (16:21)
Well, I mean, you named a lot of things like providing respite because sometimes it's harder to get child care in the home. So providing respite in the church. I'll say one thing is get your volunteers trained on trauma-informed care. And again, it's not the big long three-day trainings. There's some short trainings that you can do because so often what happens is
Families bring these precious kids into their home and because of what they have experienced, they have behaviors that are big and confusing. And so families are following what they believe God has told them to do. Foster or adopt or provide kinship care. And too many times then, they take those kids to church and the church will go, we can't have that here.
And there was a study, gosh this was probably 15 years ago, and it said, where do you feel most rejected? And church was at the top of the list. And I think it's because, when you're doing this, which you believe God has called you to do, you're expecting your church family to be cheering you on. And so when they say your kid's behavior is too much, that's just, that's heartbreaking.
So I think churches, that's one thing you can do. Get your people trained on just some simple way. And really, like Jeremy, it's not, you don't have to know all the signs, but it's just a little bit like understanding because of what's happened to them, their brain is wired differently, they're in survival mode, therefore they may have behaviors that don't meet your expectations. And I'm sure you're familiar with Dr. Karen Purvis. She wrote The Connected Child and she was a pioneer in working with kids from trauma.
She says behavior is the language of children who have lost their voice. So these kiddos are communicating to us with the only they're communicating to us in the only way that they can at that time and that's through their behavior. So just just a couple little things to help people be more open minded. And I will say like be curious not judgmental because a lot of
KIDMIN U Team (18:03)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (18:25)
A lot of parents feel judged because of their kids behavior. So that's something you can do. But yeah, but tangible needs. Think about what you do for your own kid. I drive them to soccer every day and ⁓ this family has a kid on my kid's soccer team. Why don't I just be the one to drive them back and forth to soccer? Or it's back to school shopping time. Why don't I just get the list from that mom and I'll take care of that? Wrap presents.
KIDMIN U Team (18:29)
Yeah.
Kim Botto (18:49)
know, churches can do this where just bring a bunch of people together in your church with a bunch of wrapping paper and then have foster families drop off their gifts with little post-its with the names on it and wrap their presents for them. I mean, that's huge because when we take kids into our home, they have hard backgrounds. There are a lot more appointments. There are, you know, bedtime might take longer than with a typical kid. So if we can just
take some of these just simple little tasks off their plate, that's a great way to support them.
KIDMIN U Team (19:21)
Yeah, I love that you mentioned that too, because I think a lot of people might look at that and say, well, it's just another child in your home.
And in some ways it is, right? I do believe like, I do believe there's not a difference in the way that you necessarily parent or love them. Like they're your family and family's family. But, when you foster, when you adopt, there are also other things that you're saying yes to. And those are sometimes invisible commitments that a lot of people don't always see. they don't see the other appointments that you have to make.
Like
I think having a pastor who has two of those kids and hearing about his story and Their week is not a normal week, you know, and their story is theirs to share I don't want to share all that here But the bottom line is there's so much more that they carry that you don't always see and so Even though those things are really small like helping with groceries or taking kids to practice or whatever Those small things really mean a lot to those families, you know, that might be a little thing for you But it could be a big thing for them
Kim Botto (20:08)
That's right.
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (20:21)
And so I love that you talked about that. And also what I really appreciate about that is I think sometimes our mind goes to what type of ministry or program or event do I need to do at my church to support them well? Like we just think immediately what's the structure that we need? And sometimes it's just, you know, you're a human, you see another human, help meet their needs.
Kim Botto (20:32)
⁓ right.
Thanks.
I was gonna say, I was gonna say,
just go be a good human. Go be a kind, compassionate human to your neighbors. Yeah, because it's a huge blessing, it's wonderful, and it's really hard because think of a child who has had the most important thing taken from them, which is their family. And so they're gonna need extra, extra of all kinds of things.
KIDMIN U Team (20:48)
Yeah.
Kim Botto (21:04)
in the home to feel safe and secure and loved.
KIDMIN U Team (21:07)
Yeah. Okay. There are a couple things that I'd love to maybe talk about here. One is I do want to talk about the church component of it. If you're a church leader who's hearing all this and you're feeling a stirring, you're like, I know I should do something to support foster care and adoption. I know we just said it doesn't have to be a formal structure, which it doesn't, but we can build stuff like that. We can build teams and we can ⁓ create support systems. What might that look like?
Kim Botto (21:12)
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (21:34)
Like specifically, like what are the first few steps that a church leader might take to actually start doing that in their church?
Kim Botto (21:40)
Well, I mean, get your people trained to accept the kids. I have had foster families tell me, you know, like I just talked about, where they're turned away by their church. So if we're going to be doing these initiatives for foster families, let's make sure that if the family goes, I really love this church because they wrote my Christmas presents, that when they bring their kids to our church, that we're ready to welcome them.
I of forgot what your question was. You're talking about what the church can do? Because you'll edit that out right away.
KIDMIN U Team (22:06)
Yeah, what are the first
few steps that we can take as church leaders to create systems?
Kim Botto (22:10)
⁓
Well, we can partner with other people. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. There is a group called the Forgotten Initiative. Jamie Cabe founded it. And what they do is they support agencies. Now you might go, wait a minute, support an agency. I'm about supporting a kid. There's a huge turnover in caseworkers. And the more caseworkers a kid has, the...
their chances of permanency, meaning either being reunified with their birth family or being adopted decreases with every caseworker that comes into the picture. So what the Forgotten Initiative does is they partner with churches and they work to support caseworkers. They also work to, you know, if a kid is taken from the home in the middle of the night, they come into this office and Jamie talks about going into foster care agencies and she's looking at where these kids are staying. They're sleeping on sleeping bags on the floor.
KIDMIN U Team (22:45)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (23:04)
and the furniture is just really stark, know, corporeal kind of furniture. So they go in and make these amazing rooms for even though it's really hard, at least it's a comfortable room for them to stay in. They also provide spaces where foster kids can meet or kids in the foster system can meet with their birth families. Because sometimes foster families have to drive long distances to find a neutral place to do it.
Well, churches can do that. So those are a couple of things you can do. We already talked about respite. Also, support groups. We started a support group. I shared my story one Sunday, and all these families are coming up to me, and I shared some of the stuff that was hard for me. They're like, I thought I was the only one. Like, ⁓ no, you're not the only one. And so we started a support group where foster, adoptive, and kinship parents
could come and we had a speaker that would just speak for like 20 minutes on a topic. And then the rest of the time was spent in small group, just people encouraging one another and getting to know one another. mean, we had people that would bring their dirty laundry to group because their washing machine broke, but they texted a friend in group and they're going, yeah, just bring it, I'll do it. So support groups are huge. And if you want to grow your church,
Foster, adoptive, and kinship families are looking for community. And our groups had 40 % of the people who attended had absolutely no connection to our church. Often ended up coming. So if you want to grow your church, meet the needs of your community. And that's a need.
KIDMIN U Team (24:38)
Yeah, 100%. And we'll probably talk about this in a moment, but the same thing is true for disability ministry as well. These are families who are desperate to find resources and frankly, just a safe place where their kids are welcome. And so if you can be the one church where they do feel welcome, it's like a total cheat code. mean, and not in a bad way at all. It's just like they are looking for this and you can easily provide it. It is so attractive.
Kim Botto (24:45)
Great, great.
Right.
Sure.
KIDMIN U Team (25:05)
Before we like maybe jump into that topic, there's a part of this that I really want to dig into and it will probably require me to be very vulnerable for a moment. you know, my wife and I got married about five years ago and we spent over four years trying to get pregnant and have a child. And infertility was a big part of our story. And I think
Kim Botto (25:14)
Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (25:27)
since being more vocal about that, we've realized how many people around us also are in the middle of that, that you'd never even think, you know? We were in the middle of that and
Kim Botto (25:33)
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (25:36)
Yeah, we'd shoot. Dang. We'd gone to different, you know, fertility treatments and done different things. And I remember there was there's one time where we were very, very hopeful and we got back, got more bad news and we were probably like as low as you could get. We just, you know, honestly, like we were kind of tapped financially to we'd invested a lot to go do that. We're like, I don't even know how we would do another round of any of this.
And in the middle of that, something we didn't even expect came up. We got a call from some friends in our church who knew of another person who got pregnant but was not in a position to care for that child and was looking to adopt. And they called us because they knew of our story, which by the way, quick little note for people listening, this is what happens when you actually share like what's going on in your life. All of a sudden people know how they can care for you and support you.
Kim Botto (26:01)
Right.
parent the child.
KIDMIN U Team (26:30)
but they won't know if you don't, you know, get vulnerable, you know, in the right settings, maybe not with everybody, but with your small group, with your close friends, like it's important to talk about the things that we're going through as much as is appropriate. But we got that call and I said, you know, give us a few days, you know, before we give an answer, we want to make sure that our yes is a yes or our no is a no. Like we just, we don't want to mess with this.
Kim Botto (26:31)
Great.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (26:52)
this family, like I want to make sure we're honoring them in it too. I don't want to string them along. And after, you know, we didn't really even need a couple of days. I I think I remember calling my wife, like I didn't even wait till I got home, you know, or maybe she called me. I can't even remember, but it was a phone call. And right from the jump, we're like, this is a yes, a hundred percent. It's a yes. And we ended up adopting and beginning to build the family that we'd been wanting to for years.
Kim Botto (26:57)
Right.
course.
KIDMIN U Team (27:17)
And it's so funny, we adopted this little baby girl. She was born last November in 24. And ⁓ we had her for maybe a couple months. And somehow miraculously, the Lord allowed us to get pregnant, which is wild. After years of trying to go through treatment and everything. Somehow God was like, you know what, I'm just going to bless you. Like I'm going to, you know, open the floodgates here and allow you to get pregnant. And so
Kim Botto (27:24)
Mm-hmm.
wow. Wow.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (27:43)
As we're recording this, we're a month away from the due date and we're about to have our second. ⁓ you know, the reason I share that though is because I was not looking at adoption. I, you know, I've always respected it. I've always been open to it, but there was part of me that thought, you know, I'm going to try and like, I guess during our early years, try and get pregnant while we can. And then at some point, maybe we'll consider adoption, but it wasn't, it wasn't on our radar until it was on our radar.
Kim Botto (27:47)
So congrats. Congrats, Jeremy.
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (28:12)
⁓ And I wonder,
Kim Botto (28:12)
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (28:13)
there are a lot of people listening to this who, maybe it is for them. But like, I wonder if there are people listening where, ⁓ you know, foster care and adoption could be part of their story, but there's some things holding them back. What would you say to some folks who maybe hadn't really thought about it, or maybe even have their doubts about it? I mean, we both are kind of in that setting now, but what, what encouragement or wisdom could you share with them?
Kim Botto (28:36)
first, if you're married, you need to be on the same page. And if one of you is not wanting to do it, then it's not time to do it. You need to both be on the same page. I think if you're thinking, man, I don't know, then just take little steps into it. Help adoptive and foster families with different things. Volunteer at your church's respite night.
You can take small little steps to see if God continues to open doors for you. And like I said earlier, we're all called to care for the orphan. James 1.27. So look for ways that you might care for kids because so many foster families, very few foster families are still fostering after the first year. And for a lot of people, it's because of lack of support.
So you, by mowing the lawn, by dropping off a meal every couple weeks, by wrapping some Christmas presents, might enable that foster family to stay in the game.
KIDMIN U Team (29:34)
Hmm. Yeah, I love that because I think a lot of people feel like it's either an all in or all out. And I don't know if it has to be that I think you can actually take steps. And, you know, what we've noticed is there are some families in our church who probably, if you were to ask them point blank at the very beginning, would you ever consider foster care adoption? They'd probably say no. But they started taking some of these small yeses and they started making meals for foster family.
Kim Botto (29:39)
Yeah, it's not. It's not.
KIDMIN U Team (29:58)
And then eventually they get certified for respite care to help babysit long term. And then eventually they see, hey, this isn't so crazy. Like being a foster parent, like, you know, like I can do this. I see what it looks like. They're a normal family. Like I can do this as well. And all of a sudden some of those people are now fostering and adopting. And it's a beautiful thing. And by the way, listen, you could take baby steps and still not get to that point. And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, this isn't for everybody. That's actually okay.
Kim Botto (29:59)
Mm-hmm. Bright, bright.
Right, that's right. We're not all
called to bring a child into our home 24-7.
KIDMIN U Team (30:32)
Yeah.
Yeah. It's a big commitment and it's not for everybody. Okay. I want to transition a little bit because this is similar, but different. What I love about the things that you invest in is there is a through line. As you said, you know, maybe it started with foster care and adoption, but there's this trend of serving different groups that are often under supported and underrepresented within the church and within our community. And one of those is disability ministry, special needs, things like that. ⁓
Kim Botto (30:39)
Okay.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Right?
KIDMIN U Team (30:59)
Tell
me about how that evolved, because it sounds like foster care and adoption came first, and then maybe as a result of that, you got involved with this somehow. What did that look like?
Kim Botto (31:07)
Well, we already had kids with differences at our church and didn't always feel equipped to meet their needs. So as we became more trauma-informed and used those strategies with kids who were disabled or neurodivergent, we found that, wait, we actually, we are equipped. We're equipped to...
not just care for these kids, but disciple them. And I will say that is a, there's a distinction. Cause there are churches that say, yes, I do what they call it, special needs ministry, disability ministry, inclusion team. Yes, we do it. But it's more of a childcare situation where they have a room where the kids are cared for wonderfully during that time. But the Great Commission, mean, they're part of the nations that God is calling us.
to disciple. So when we do have them in our midst, we need to presume competence and share the gospel with them.
But churches have, think sometimes churches are afraid. They're not sure if they, you know, are they gonna do it right? And, you know, have a conversation with the parents. I have all kinds of, you know, intake sheets that kind of guides how you can talk to parents about their kids. You know, different ways to talk to parents when behaviors are hard.
Just start having that conversation with parents because everybody has a desire to belong. Everybody. Whether they're able to express it with words or not, we all have the desire to belong. And I believe that church should be the place where people can find a place to belong. And it's going to require us as churches to get out of... I think we focus so much on the typical kid.
And we need to expand our thinking to, you know, might have to make some modifications or changes. And it's not just about, you know, another thing, just because you have a ramp and wide bathroom stalls does not mean that you are welcoming to people with disabilities. And I had somebody told me that the building is welcoming or the building is accessible.
KIDMIN U Team (33:04)
Yeah.
Kim Botto (33:12)
but the people aren't.
KIDMIN U Team (33:13)
Wow.
Kim Botto (33:13)
And I've been talking to some people who are really active in disability ministry. And I used to have this thing where I thought that most of the people who were doing it had a kid or a sibling who had that kind of background. But as I talked to more people, there's a lot of people who meet somebody who maybe they're autistic or maybe they have multiple sclerosis and they're going, oh my gosh, this is an amazing person. And I want them to be able to experience
ordinary moments like I do. I want them to be able to experience friendship like I do. And what happens is, is our lives are more enriched. It's not these people are not projects. They are fearfully and wonderfully made. They're created in God's image. And we can grow and our life can be enriched because we are in relationship with and friends to people who are different than us.
KIDMIN U Team (34:05)
Yeah. You know what's funny? And I imagine you've seen this too over the years, but there's something inevitable that happens when somebody starts serving with those kids. You know, I've seen it when we've had like a whole
program in a classroom and I've also seen it when we've done buddy systems. But anytime you have somebody who serves there for the first time, they immediately fall in love. Like it's hard not to. I think there's something incredibly beautiful there that, you know, unless you've experienced the joy and wonder and just the way that kids see the world. Like I think about in our church right now, one of our staff members has a son who needs a buddy.
Kim Botto (34:27)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (34:41)
and you know, his story is a little different. And for their sake, I won't share names or anything like that. But I mean, everybody kind of knows like he's he's kind of like our mascot in the kids ministry. Everybody loves him. He's so sweet. And he always has to have a buddy, you know, and he's gonna go all around the church campus during the service because he just
Kim Botto (34:52)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (34:58)
needs to wander and he has a friend with him. But it's funny, anytime we've ever had somebody serve as a buddy with him, they immediately fall in love and they say, you know what, this little guy's my favorite. Like the joy he has, like being around him, it's just contagious. And so it's funny, sometimes what we'll take, like if one of our buddies calls out.
You know, we'll find another one of our screened and trained volunteers and say, Hey, for a day, would you be willing to, to hang with him? And they say, sure. I'll fill in just for this one day. And then what always happens is they're like, Hey, can I like stop doing my other role and just hang with him every time that happens all the time? what would you tell people about that? Cause I think some people might be nervous. They might think, well, I don't have the training or I don't know what to do there or whatever. ⁓ what would you say to people about what it's actually like?
Kim Botto (35:25)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (35:44)
to volunteer with kids like that in our churches.
Kim Botto (35:46)
Well, first of all, I mean, they're kids. They're kids, period. And I think when we are encountering something that's different, or someone who is different, we have a tendency to be, we feel a little uncomfortable. And what we tend to do when we feel uncomfortable is we step away. So I would say, take a step forward. Just keep taking a step forward.
KIDMIN U Team (36:07)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (36:09)
They're kids. mean, find out what they like to do. I mean, maybe they love to play trouble. So sit down and play trouble with them. Maybe they love matchbox cars. So sit with them and line up matchbox cars with them. Find out, just as you would with anybody. I mean, Jeremy, when you meet somebody for the first time, you're asking them about maybe their job or their family, but you know, things they like to do. Do that with a child. And even if they're not verbal,
You can then pull out some different things and see what kind of gets their interest and then follow their lead. And it might be uncomfortable and it might not be a great experience at first. And that's okay. Gosh, I think of one of my BFFs that the first time we were together, it was not, I thought, this is not a chick that I'm going to be friends with. And we're, I I talked to her every day.
So keep on pursuing and know that these children are created in the image of God and we are called to disciple and to help people. I mean as believers that's what we're called to do. So go ahead and just take a step while you're lining up Matchbox cars. You know talk about Jesus or pray with them.
KIDMIN U Team (37:20)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (37:23)
or pray over them. Yeah, just take a step. But I would say for churches, you are gonna have people who are nervous, so don't throw them in by themselves. Find somebody who is experienced and have them pair with them. First, think that's one of, I mean, you talk about somebody who's nervous, and well, if they're nervous, like don't put, and actually, even if they're feeling super confident, if they've never done it before, I want them to have some training. I want them to work side by side with an experienced volunteer.
KIDMIN U Team (37:31)
Mm
Kim Botto (37:49)
first and then once we've kind of vetted them and they've also you know see how we do things well then they can pair one-on-one with a child because we're not looking for warm bodies we're looking for people who love Jesus and want every kid to know who he is.
KIDMIN U Team (38:01)
Yeah.
Okay, so some people are listening to this and they're thinking, you know what, I don't know if I have a designated classroom or the people to do an official full program, right? They may not be there, but they can do something. So what would you say to those people about taking some baby steps to start supporting some of these families?
Kim Botto (38:26)
Yeah, you don't need a room. And actually there's a lot of people now talking about we shouldn't have a separate sensory room. All of our rooms should be sensory friendly, which what that would mean is you would have some fidgets in your room. You know, Jeremy, these are things like the squishy balls, the different things that kids can play with. Because when a kid is feeling anxious or when they need the sensory input, fidgets can help with that.
KIDMIN U Team (38:36)
Hmm.
Kim Botto (38:51)
Maybe you have something in the back of the room. It could be a tent. It could be an appliance box where you throw in a beanbag chair, maybe some noise reducing or noise canceling headphones, some markers, some paper, things like that. Where if a kid, if you've got a kid with sensory differences, they know that they have this quiet space that they can escape to. I'll talk to churches that say, my God, this kid, always wants to go out.
He was always wanting to run out of the room. It's like, does it happen at a certain time? Well, often it's during, either during transitions, you know, which are loud and unpredictable, or during worship, which not all kids love worship fully cranked up to the highest volume. So provide them with opportunities to get their sensory needs met. And you can do that in the room. And also I always say in kids ministry, the hall is the most underutilized space.
you could set up a little quiet space out in the hall. And then the hall is public where there's people coming, you know, walking back and forth. So you could just have one volunteer do that. Cause you always want to make sure there's two volunteers, you know, with a kid. You never want to be alone with a kid. But yeah, just some simple steps like that. And there's all kinds of resources online. I actually, I wrote an article, I don't know, like six months ago on how to start a disability ministry.
KIDMIN U Team (39:43)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Kim Botto (40:07)
And it gives links to all kinds of people that'll tell you how to build buddy bags or, here's a great intake sheet or here's some different ideas of things to have in your room. There's a lot of people that want to help and support. And yeah, and I will say too, I think a lot of people, when they say they want to, yeah, yeah, I want to have disability ministry, they then think they need to be prepared for every child that might possibly come into their space. And I always say, start with the kids you have.
You got sweet little Jeremy who has ADHD and needs space to move. Well, then create space to move for Jeremy. And then when the next little, you know, then when little Daetwan comes and figure out what he needs and then meet his needs. don't, please don't stop because you don't feel like you're ready for every kid because you're never going to be ready for that. Just go ahead and meet the needs of the kids that you currently have.
KIDMIN U Team (40:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah. And the other thing people don't often think about, because this is something unique about this, this ministry and this demographic, no two kids are the same. I think that's what I've learned over years of doing special needs ministry. You can't just say, you know, I know how to handle like this type of thing or this type of age or whatever. Every single child is going to have different dynamics in place. So if you're sitting there waiting to be ready for every kid, that time will never come. You need to be ready to just
welcome the kids that are in front of you, take it one thing at a time, talk to mom and dad, look at what the kid is responding to and how you can support them. I mean, it really is a one by one kind of ministry. You can't have a blanket approach to everybody anyway. And so I love the way that you package that because I think that's something all of us can do, even if we don't have a room. You years ago, when I was getting started in ministry, that was the model. If you had a special needs ministry, it meant you had to have a room.
Kim Botto (41:27)
Exactly. Exactly.
KIDMIN U Team (41:53)
a separate program in its own thing. And I think there's a time and a place for that. But I think by and large, I think we need to build it in to everywhere in our ministry. You know, that could be as simple as, you know, I don't even know if you're always going to be ready all the time, you know, maybe you don't have a scheduled buddy, but it's like, what if you have an extra volunteer in each room, and you're just ready? Like if somebody needs a one on one, like that extra person is ready. And you know what, if you don't have one of those kids show up, guess what?
You're comfortably staffed for the day. Great. It's going to be awesome. It's a win-win, but it could be as simple as having a couple extra people ready to care for whoever comes. I love that. What are your thoughts then? Because it sounds like you definitely err on the side of having, all of our environments be open and friendly. Is there a time and space to have a separate, room and a program? And if so, like, how do we know if that's what we need?
Kim Botto (42:25)
Right?
Sure.
Yeah, mean, absolutely. There's, you know, it depends. It depends on the kid. I think what we don't want to do is we don't want to have a separate room and every kid with any kind of differences goes into that room and never engages with the other kids. Because when we do that, what that is teaching our typical kids is if there's a kid with differences, I don't engage with them. And so as they get older,
they're not going to, I mean, if they see a kid that is stimming, they are going to turn the other way and walk away because so we need to figure out what is best for a kid for each individual child and know that what's best for them today might not be what's best for them next week. They may do great with their peers this week and then next week they may need a quieter environment. And I think we need to figure out what our goal is and our goal.
is we want to provide a safe environment for them to know who Jesus is and to grow in their faith.
And then figure out what environment is best for that. I mean, maybe it's in the room for all the time except for at the beginning when it's kind of chaotic with people coming and going. Maybe they start in the sensory room. We had a lot of kids that would start in the sensory room. And then once things were settled down and large groups started, then they would go to large group. So figure it out. And you might be thinking, my gosh, I can't keep track of all these different kids. it's really not that complicated.
Just observe and watch. And also, there may be people that would never ever raise their hand to work in children's ministry. No way. But if you were to go to them and say, hey, I've got Jeremy and he loves planes. And I know you love planes too. And he loves to just draw planes. Would you just like hang out with him for a couple of weeks and just see how it goes? Because that's all. You don't need to, you don't need to be responsible for any other kids in the room.
Just Jeremy. And he also, when the music starts, he needs to go in the hall for a little bit. And you can draw airplanes in the hall and then come back. There will be people that will say yes to that that you never would have thought would have worked in children's ministry.
KIDMIN U Team (44:44)
Yeah, I love that there's, there's just a balance of different things that you can do in different churches. You know, I think when I was at Sandals prior to COVID, we were building out a strategy for this for our campuses. And at the time we had 11 campuses and some were big, some were small. Not every single one of them was going to have a dedicated room or a program, but we wanted to have a presence everywhere. And so I think we came up with a hybrid approach. It's like every single campus is going to be ready to welcome.
kids in terms of a buddy system. We would have some basic supplies in classrooms like what you talked about, some noise canceling headphones, some fidget toys, things like that. So we would be ready to welcome kids on a small scale if it was just a few and we could accomplish it with a one-on-one. And then what we tried to do is have a few different campuses within each region that would be kind of like that one place where you could go if you needed like a full classroom. So if your child actually did need that, it's like, OK, well,
Kim Botto (45:17)
Right.
KIDMIN U Team (45:38)
The closest campus to you is 10 minutes away. Maybe they're not equipped for that. But if you're willing to drive like 17, 18 minutes away, this other campus does. For a family like that, they were totally okay. And so, you know, our goal through 11 campuses, I think was to have about four of them that had their own full program, but every other one was going to have something on a smaller scale so that we're not so that we're not doing nothing. That was our goal. It's like, we're going to have these kids in every single community. So how can we be
Kim Botto (45:56)
Mm-hmm.
KIDMIN U Team (46:07)
ready for them. You served at a very large church at Crossroads, ⁓ one that was growing really fast, also at scale. What did your ministries for this demographic look like at a church like that? I think we can picture maybe at a small church, but I'm curious, how did you have to scale it to make it work at Crossroads?
Kim Botto (46:12)
Mm-hmm.
Well, the thing about it, it is a large church, but you have some sites that had 15 kids and some sites with thousands of kids. So it looked different. Some sites might have a separate sensory room, other sites might not. What was the same is that we got curious about each kid and worked with the parents to meet their individual needs.
I mean, that's the goal. And I know some people would look at us and go, well, sure, you can do it, because you're a big, giant place. But I found that often the smaller churches...
Sometimes they're better because they know the kid and they know that he loves goldfish and red matchbox cars. And they know that he loves worship music but doesn't love sitting for when when Miss Jean talks for 20 minutes to teach the Bible story. He doesn't do well there so he moves him out. So I think there are there are there are advantages to both places.
And just because your church may be smaller, it's not a reason to say that you can't meet the needs of the kids. You can.
We got a question from, I think it's Kylene, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, where she said, at what point do you need a part-time or full-time staff member to do special needs ministry rather than the responsibilities being under the kids director? Again, it just depends. It depends on what kind of other supports the kids ministry director might have.
KIDMIN U Team (47:33)
Mm-hmm.
Kim Botto (47:52)
You know, maybe you don't have anybody dedicated to the special needs ministry, but you have a couple other staffers who are working in, maybe somebody's responsible for birth through preschool and somebody else kindergarten through fifth grade, and they then work with kids right there. And I really think, too, that kind of brings up another thing. Like when we train people to work with kids from trauma or kids who have disabilities,
The whole team needs to be trained, not just the people working directly with them. So I think you don't, there's, I would say most churches don't have a separate disability director or special needs director. It's that everybody is learning how we welcome kids with differences.
and provide a safe environment for them. And typically there's one person who's most passionate about it. And Kylene, maybe you're that person, maybe you're most passionate about it. And so maybe it's figuring out how you can delegate some of your other things so that you can then spend more time doing that. Because really, that's what happened to me. I got super passionate about kids who had experienced trauma and...
you know, leadership told me, that's great. We'd love for you to spend more time doing that. You figure out how you can delegate some of your responsibilities to free up space to do that.
KIDMIN U Team (49:06)
Yeah, I love that. Which by the way, yeah, I agree. By the way, for those people who are on our live stream, if you're listening to this and it's already recorded, the live stream's not going anymore. But a little shout out for these podcasts. We actually allow some of the people in our Kidman U community to jump on the live stream, jump in the chat, and even submit some questions. And if we have time, we'll get to as many as we can.
Kim Botto (49:07)
But there's not a magic number.
KIDMIN U Team (49:30)
As future episodes are scheduled, you can always jump on these. my own final question in this before we get to whatever's left in the chat. ⁓ What are some steps you'd give to churches who are just trying to get started on some of these things? You know, I know we've talked about this a little bit, but like, what's what's the takeaway?
Kim Botto (49:37)
Okay.
KIDMIN U Team (49:46)
this? How do we build inclusive ministries just all encompassing it, whether it's foster care and adoption or disability ministry or whatnot? I think we all have somewhere we can start. In your mind, where is that?
Kim Botto (49:58)
Mm-hmm. Well, I think there's a couple things. One, talk to the parents. Build a relationship with them. Find out from them what success looks like in the church for their kid and what accommodations might be needed. And when I say what success looks like, you know, I for a long time thought we need inclusive environments all the time. All the kids need to be together all the time.
Well, then I was talking to a mom who had a kid with Down syndrome and she said, actually, I don't like my kid in an environment with a whole bunch of other kids and a room where he can escape. said, I love it when he is in that sensory space that has a lock that can only be opened from the outside of the double-dutch doors. So talk to the parents. And then the second thing would do it concurrently. As we said earlier,
Look at the kids in your environment that are struggling and just be curious. You know, read some books, follow some people on, you know, social media.
just start taking baby steps to, well first, not baby steps, you need to identify their need, then start taking baby steps, experimenting with what might meet that need.
KIDMIN U Team (51:09)
love it. think we read scripture and we talk about the widows, the orphans and the outcasts. And I think we still have widows and orphans that that's a universal thing that's timeless. I think in a sense, it's also representative of all types of communities that aren't seen, understood, or supported. And that's what I love about your ministry. That's the theme. The theme is, how can we love the people that a lot of times are forgotten by?
Kim Botto (51:27)
Sure.
KIDMIN U Team (51:35)
other communities and other folks. And we as the church, this should be the thing that we are best at. Like we should totally lap everybody else when it comes to this. Like if we can't love and care for others, then what are we even doing? And so I completely second everything you said. Maybe it isn't always having a separate room or a program for every single one of these.
groups of people, but we can all do something. That's the bottom line. It's an act of stewardship and faithfulness at the end of the day.
Kim Botto (52:01)
Yeah.
Yep, yep, yeah. Jason Johnson who, he's a great person to follow. He is, I think his title is Church Relations at CAFO, which is Christian Alliance for Orphans. And he said, I'm going to butcher this quote, but we don't all have to do the same thing, but we can all do something. So just figure out what your something is and do it. Yeah. And these kids, if we don't provide a safe environment for their...
KIDMIN U Team (52:23)
I love it. Yeah.
Kim Botto (52:28)
for these children who have differences, then that means their families, their siblings, their parents don't have a place to go either.
KIDMIN U Team (52:35)
people are looking for a place to call home and we can provide it. Well, Kim, thank you so much for coming on. This has been such a good conversation for the sake of time. I'm going to kind of wrap it up here, but for people who want to know more about what you're doing, what you're up to right now, where would you tell them to go?
Kim Botto (52:39)
Great. Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you, Jeremy. Great.
KimBotta.com has all the stuff and I do monthly virtual gatherings with children's ministry leaders where we talk about all kinds of things and so they can find out about that there. I also wrote a book, Balanced Hope for Every Child, which really helps us first better understand kids who are different and then
whole bunch of practical tools on how we can create safe spaces for them. those are the but yeah, kimbotta.com is kind of all the places. And then I'm I play around on Instagram so I'm there too.
KIDMIN U Team (53:19)
So good.
As
we all do. Yep. I love it. Well Ken, thank you for coming on and if you are listening to this listeners, thank you for coming all the people on our live stream. Thank you for joining in. We'll see you next time
Kim Botto (53:30)
Thank you, Jeremy.
