Jim Wideman: How to Have a Healthy Ministry Mindset
What does it take to lead in kids ministry for decades… and still love it?
In this very first episode, we sit down with kids ministry legend Jim Wideman to talk about the stuff that actually makes leaders last.
Jim shares how he accidentally got started in kids ministry over 50 years ago, what he wishes he knew in his early years, and why the key to sustainable ministry isn’t doing more — it’s building the right team, protecting your margins, and learning to break overwhelming seasons into manageable pieces.
We also dive into what it really means to shepherd people well (not just teach), why follow-up is a form of care, how ministry has shifted in today’s culture, and why Jim believes the future of kids ministry depends on making room for the Holy Spirit again.
If you’ve ever felt overwhelmed, stretched too thin, or like you’re carrying the whole ministry on your back… this conversation will bring clarity, encouragement, and a better way forward.
Quick Links
Authentic Leadership That Lasts by Jim Wideman
Stretch by Jim Wideman
Transcript
KIDMIN U Team (00:00)
Well, Jim, welcome to the podcast.
Jim Wideman (00:02)
Hey, it's great to be with you. I'm so excited to be here and I love what you're doing.
KIDMIN U Team (00:08)
Thank you so much, man. Okay, so I, like many leaders, have been following you for a long time. I remember First Gain started in Kids Ministry, and I feel like the most recommended books all have the name Jim Weidman on it. And so I read the books, learned a ton. ⁓ And so to have you here is just a privilege. It's a treat. So thank you for coming on. I love it. What I'd actually love to do, because I think people know what you've done.
Jim Wideman (00:22)
Well...
man, so
KIDMIN U Team (00:35)
throughout your career. They've probably seen you at conferences. They've probably read your books, maybe even for the people who've been around a while, they've listened to the cassette tapes too. ⁓ I love to go all the way back to the beginning, right? How'd all this start?
Jim Wideman (00:44)
Yeah.
All right,
well, I got saved and went to church. And if you ever did drugs in the 70s, the first question they ask you when you got to church, because you didn't look like you went to church, because we all had three feet of hair, and they wanted to hear your testimony. And if you ever did drugs, they just put you in the youth group. I mean, you know, just.
tell these people not to take drugs. And so I was leading worship in youth and helping with teenagers and felt a call to the ministry, went to Bible college and ⁓ was working with youth and all this stuff. And one day at the church I was going to, ⁓ my pastor came and found me and said, hey, the lady that was doing children's ministry.
didn't show up today. And so put your hair in a ponytail, get your guitar, go to get your Bible and go to children's church and don't come out. And that was about 52 years ago. And that's how I started. you know, that was the longest month I'd ever spent an hour and a half, to be honest with you. We started with Genesis and ended up with Concordance that day.
Saint Father Abraham 400 times and ⁓ I found him after service and said, how long am I gonna have to do this? And he said, until God raises up somebody with a vision. So, you know, I went to a good Baptist college and ⁓ so I was, you know, using all my godly tones and praying, merciful Jesus, you know, give somebody a vision for children's ministry.
After working with those kids the next few weeks and praying that prayer, I realized I was with somebody who had given the vision to me. You know, if anything, it's just gotten worse over all these years and it's just been fun. so seven turned into 20, which turned into 40, which turned into 300 at that church. And, you know, the children's ministry grew and
Seven churches later and a whole bunch of years and getting to see the Lord's faithfulness and blessing and you know the good thing about when I started in the 70s. So I've been working with kids and parents in my 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, now I'm a 70. Starting the 70s and so I'm excited about that.
The crazy thing is, you know, I ⁓ just still see ⁓ the call on my life and I don't know how you retire from the ministry. In the Bible, when the Lord was done with you, He took you home. And I have no desire.
KIDMIN U Team (03:57)
Hmm.
Ha
Jim Wideman (04:07)
to go camping or ride around in a Winnebago or maybe it's cause I'm from Alabama and I've been trying to stay out of a trailer park my whole life. And I look at motor homes as just a real expensive trailer park, but you know, I just, I just want to help younger leaders. And I'm working with a whole bunch of 25, 35 year old folks and you know, forties are the old ones.
It's just fun and that's what I've done and I've got to be a part of what I call crazy growth four times where the churches just experience great growth and everybody tries to take credit for it, but it's just a goodness of God
KIDMIN U Team (04:56)
Well, I'd love to go back to the beginning because there's something that you said that I've heard a lot from kids mystery leaders, which is that a lot of us don't plan to be here. Like I know for me, my dream job, you know, when I was a kid, I was a weird kid. I didn't want to be a pro baseball player. I didn't want to be a firefighter. I actually wanted to be like Billy Bean and Moneyball. I wanted to be a GM specifically for the angels. That's what I wanted to do. And, you know, this stuff has a way of finding us. Like that's a common
Jim Wideman (05:00)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
There you go, there you go.
KIDMIN U Team (05:25)
like story I hear, like people rarely set out and they know from the very beginning I want to be a kids pastor. Now lot of people know they want to be a youth pastor, a lot of people know they want to be a lead pastor. Why do you think it is that people kind of end up in kids ministry by surprise?
Jim Wideman (05:27)
Yeah.
Well, you know, I don't know if it's just, I ended up in ministry total by surprise, the whole thing. And, you know, I think the main thing is I really don't believe God calls individuals to a particular calling. ⁓ I know for me, I was,
I see this in the Bible. There are head guys who are called to a particular people group or place, but associates are called to a person. And I feel like God called me to help my pastor. And the pastors, and the area that most of the pastors that I have served have been in children's ministry. And for me,
I'll God, God doesn't bless me because I'm good with kids. He blesses me because I have my yes on the table. And I think the important thing is whatever he needs me to be. Um, I've been a utility guy most at almost every church that I worked at where I've had, you know, somebody gets fired and there's always that guy that has all the jobs until they hire somebody.
I've had to go back and do youth, I've done pastoral care, I've been a master of music, I've been over the television department, I've been the camp director. I've been pretty much, I've been over finances at places. And you know, God has blessed me if I'm a family pastor, next-gen pastor, children's pastor, a youth pastor.
an executive pastor, I've an operations pastor, I'm an executive pastor of ministries, which means I'm over everything birth through death at my current church. it's, you know, God blesses me because my yes is for Him. And the good news in all that is only associates in the Bible got a double anointing.
⁓ And so head guys didn't get that. And so that's the benefits, I think, of pouring out yourself for another person and serving. ⁓ You know, it's, ministry has changed over the decades. And I laugh, I read the story about Moses and ⁓ two guys holding up his arm. And I think now, if that happened today,
Moses would have to get child care for the two guys and the rock he's sitting on, ⁓ he'd probably had to bring it up before the meeting started and ⁓ all that kind of stuff. And so it's, it's, it's wild. ⁓ But ⁓ God has called us to hold up our leader's hands. And ⁓ I have the privilege of serving a pastor who was one of my volunteers.
at church on the move when he went to Bible college. And that's just been a tremendous blessing to serve somebody that used to serve me.
KIDMIN U Team (09:13)
Okay, so you've been in ministry for decades. You've seen a lot, you've done a lot, you probably learned a lot, maybe through trial and error. If you're to go back and talk to Jim in your early years, like your rookie year, what would you say? What do you know now that you wish you knew then?
Jim Wideman (09:26)
Yeah.
Quit trying to be a one man show and just build a great team. ⁓ That would be, ⁓ I worked on, ⁓ you know, I could do it all. I did puppets, I sang, I danced, I did bloom animals, did the whole thing. ⁓
You know, I've said this for years. ⁓ There's one group of kids, there's three groups of adults that ⁓ in children's ministry, not a single kid in my ministry has driver's license. So I've got to learn how to work good with parents. ⁓ I can't be in all the square footage of the children's ministry. The biggest difference between youth ministry and children's ministry
is just how many volunteers and the square footage of all that many classes happening at one time where you have to have people to represent you. So, you know, you've got to learn how to delegate and you've got to duplicate before you delegate. And that's probably something I wish I could have told young Jill is you can't just hand them a Sunday school book, throw them in the classroom and tell them don't come out to Jesus.
And it's one of those things that you've got to duplicate yourself and then we see that with Jesus in the 12. He had 12, he had three, had one, and then he had 72 and 144 and all. And the addition turned into multiplication and you and I heard the gospel because he poured in folks who poured in folks who poured in folks who poured in folks. And so that's probably the
KIDMIN U Team (11:03)
Hmm.
Jim Wideman (11:16)
biggest thing. think I would have told myself, don't take yourself so serious. I've already said this once, I'll probably say it three, four more times before the podcast is over, but I don't blame my own press kit. I know this, ⁓ things are not ever as bad as I think they are. And I'm not as wonderful as I think I am.
KIDMIN U Team (11:25)
Hmm.
Jim Wideman (11:44)
It's always in between those two. ⁓ you know, it's, ⁓ God is so faithful. And I have learned to, ⁓ it's okay to have fun, relax, set your priorities. And ⁓ those are some things. And I, you know, I've already written the articles and the chapters and books about what old Jim would say.
KIDMIN U Team (11:45)
Yeah.
Jim Wideman (12:14)
the young Jim, but the cool thing is old Jim's still learning stuff.
KIDMIN U Team (12:19)
I think one of the things that people really love about you and the reason I think your voice resonates so well with young leaders is because you have a legacy of faithfulness. You're the real deal. You're authentic. You know, like I've been in your coaching program. I I've gotten to know you. You know, you're the same gym there on Zoom as you are on stage and, know, at your church and doing all those things. And you've been doing it for a while. I actually think there's a beauty in seeing leaders who last.
Jim Wideman (12:24)
I think your voice resonates so well with the...
Yeah.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (12:46)
What's the difference between leaders who last and those who burn out along the way? What would you say?
Jim Wideman (12:52)
Well, you know, the problem with burnout, ⁓ everybody loves to use that word, but you don't start burning out. Burnout happens over a period of time when ⁓ you really, ⁓ you know, the best word rather than burnout is being overwhelmed. Burnout comes from being overwhelmed for long periods of time.
And all it means to be overwhelmed is you lose the ability to take something big and put it into smaller, manageable pieces. And I have a great wife. I have two wonderful grown daughters who talk to me the way I talk to them. they still, my girls speak in my life just like my wife does. And ⁓ they help me break things into smaller pieces.
I have mentors and people in my life who speak to me and help me ⁓ just take something bigger. And, you know, I don't know ⁓ if you try to move a dead elephant, the only way you're going to be able to move that sucker is with a chainsaw. And you've got to have somebody to help you to cut it into smaller manageable pieces.
KIDMIN U Team (14:10)
You
Jim Wideman (14:17)
And sometimes, you know, takes a backhoe or a tractor or, you know, I've hung out in the country little bit. And, you know, it's, if you ever had a cow drowned in a pond, you know, there's several different ways you can get it out. But it all ends up with hell. And I think the main thing is you've got to have.
people in your life to help you to ⁓ just keep things manageable. And ⁓ I take my time off. ⁓ I plan in before big events, downtime beforehand, downtime after. I have a group of guys that we go to two guitar shows. ⁓ We go two times a year.
And we've done this for 35 years. Started out five of us, one's in heaven. So there's just four left. It's funny. We now take a nap before we go out to dinner. But at night where we used to just stay up all the time, we go to bed incredibly early these days. But still same guys going and having a boys weekend. And that goes on the calendar before any other thing.
that and my family time. And so, ⁓ you know, you've got to build in margins. And if you don't take care of yourself, nobody else will. ⁓ And so that's the main thing is, ⁓ you know, there's a question that floats on my calendar ⁓ four times a year. And it says, ⁓
Has there ever been a time in your life when you were more in love with Jesus than you are right now? And if I say yes, I'm the only person that can fix it, but usually it's not. ⁓ you know, keep ⁓ ministry to me is just like a bank account. You got to make deposits before you can make spiritual withdrawals. ⁓ you know,
KIDMIN U Team (16:25)
Hmm.
Jim Wideman (16:42)
I was supposed to be at a leadership conference last week and wasn't able to go. had some health things come up that I wasn't able to fly, but I still watched it online. And I've been, I've now gone through those messages for the fourth time. And just, I still take in, I go to church every week. And you know, the thing I love, Jeremy, about
multiple services is I can rotate the classes that I teach and and inspect and overview, but it allows me to go to church every week as well. And it just takes me, you know, we have four different services on Sunday, so it takes me four weeks to attend all of them. But it's one of those things that, you know, I like sitting in church holding hands with my wife.
Worshiping Jesus and taking in and you know, it's made a difference in my
KIDMIN U Team (17:48)
Hmm. Let me ask you, because I think there are lot of leaders who are probably listening to this and they're thinking that sounds great, Jim. I would love to attend every week, but I feel like I can't escape the kids ministry. There's things that they need and I can't step away. What advice do you have for building in, you know, a system or routine where you can?
Jim Wideman (18:02)
Sure.
Well,
well, I worked at a church in Montgomery, Alabama, back in the eighties and I was not able to attend church, but just ever rarity. and so ⁓ my wife and I watched TBN on Saturday night. We watched Rock Church from Virginia Beach and it was real cool when time at church on the move.
⁓ the pastors of Rock Church and their daughter ⁓ came and toured and I got to thank them for having that broadcast. That was where my wife and I was fed every Saturday night. Even now, the Belonging on Tuesday night, we stream that ⁓ and watch that. ⁓ I pretty much go to bed every night listening to Bill Johnson. ⁓
And it's one of those things that, you know, everybody feeds on something. And you can either get on YouTube and get on some craziness or you can get on the Hulu's or something else and stream all kinds of things and binge on all kinds of stuff. But I want to spend my time on stuff, on worship, on praise.
⁓ I want the Word and ⁓ when I wake up in the morning, ⁓ my wife's already up, so the first person I talk to is Jesus. And ⁓ then I go find her. ⁓ I go find my wife and talk to her. And I have a routine. ⁓ I start praying for my family in the shower. ⁓
a routine where I just start talking to the Lord. I quit listening to talk radio. ⁓ You know, I'm a big college football fan. I like all three of the major sports, high school football, college football, professional football. And, you know, I used to listen to a lot of all that talk and I realized,
KIDMIN U Team (20:19)
Ha ha.
Jim Wideman (20:28)
They don't know anything more than we do. They just want to us a round up. so you got to play it on the field anyway. So I'm listening to podcasts. I'm listening to audio books. I'm building myself so I'm feeding on the right thing. then two, I really, this whole mentoring thing, it's kind of selfish to coach and mentor people.
Because the most positive scripture I know is you reap what you sow. And ⁓ most people quote it negatively. You reap what you sow. ⁓ But you reap what you sow. And I've sown ideas and sown help to other people and to other people's kids. And I've given ideas to anybody that wants them.
And so what am I going to reap from what I sell, what I give? And so those ideas and that help and help for my own kids, because my wife and I have spent our lives helping other people's kids, it's kind of selfish really, because we've been the ones that got blessed out there.
KIDMIN U Team (21:48)
I think in a similar sense, I think some of this might apply to this next question too, but I think a lot of people are probably in the middle of a season that's hard or, you know, when we're recording this, I know when this comes out, it'll be a different time of year. They'll probably be gearing up for Easter, but right now we're gearing up for Christmas and people are probably feeling like the wait, they're feeling the overwhelm.
Jim Wideman (21:57)
Yeah.
Sure.
KIDMIN U Team (22:09)
How do you protect yourself when ministry gets hard, when you feel like you're constantly in one busy season into the next? What do you do to make sure you don't get sacrificed on the altar of ministry?
Jim Wideman (22:22)
Well, you know, the main thing, you know, even convicts get time off for good behavior. ⁓ So, you know, I think the most important habit anybody can get into is watch how many nights you give to the church. The church can never have more than three. My family gets four. The church at most gets three. And that's an absolute.
KIDMIN U Team (22:38)
Hmm.
Jim Wideman (22:51)
⁓ That's a hill I'm willing to die on ⁓ you know, it's one of those things that I watch my nights. I have dates with my wife. ⁓ Let's be honest. Everything is hard. Name me something that isn't hard. ⁓ It's hard to be old. It's hard to be young. ⁓ It's, know, Christmas is hard. Easter's hard. Summer's hard.
Everybody's got hard. Just choose your hard and ⁓ staying on fire and staying full of vision is hard. Everything's hard. Just pick the hard that's right. everybody talks about saying no, but the important thing is learn what to say yes to. And I think that, you know, if I had to make a t-shirt right now or get a...
back tattoo would probably be, you know, keep your yes right. And I think that's the best thing that any of us can do. ⁓ you know, I'm navigating, you know, what it's like to just be tired. I mean, Sundays are a long day. get, ⁓ I leave my house at 630 in the morning and I come home by 8 that night. And ⁓
That was easier in my 20s than it is in this decade. But you know what? I should go straight to bed. by the time I go to bed, the Sunday night service at Bethel starting and I just stream it live and go to sleep to some beautiful music. so it's a, you know, I think the
The is to set boundaries and to, know, of all the people that I manage, I'm the toughest one. And managing me is a full-time job. And so, you know, I want to continue to manage me right. And, you know, that means turn off.
KIDMIN U Team (25:05)
Yeah.
Jim Wideman (25:20)
Turn off the TV, ⁓ go to bed, and I'll be waiting on you in the morning.
KIDMIN U Team (25:27)
Okay, one of the biggest reasons why I wanted to have you on the podcast and also to lead with you, this is going to be the first episode that airs, is because I think before we start talking about all the things you got to do in ministry and all the plays that you can run and the tactical things, I actually think the most important part is who are you? Instead of the doing, let's talk about the being. What type of ministry mindset does it require?
Jim Wideman (25:41)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (25:53)
lead well. And so I just love to maybe lob it up to you as somebody who's been doing this a long time. You've seen good examples, bad examples. We've all probably been a good or a bad example at one point. What have you learned about what it takes to have a healthy mindset, a healthy heart posture to lead well in ministry?
Jim Wideman (25:59)
Thank
run.
You know, one of the most frustrating things is getting a question that you wrote a book on. Because there's no way that you can answer it. And this thing, I wrote two books on that question. And so the crazy thing, 25 years ago, I wrote this first book, Children's Ministry Leadership, that you can do it, God. And it's just.
KIDMIN U Team (26:16)
Ha ⁓
Jim Wideman (26:38)
Those old cassette tapes you referenced at the first, this was 16 of those tapes all put in the chapters. ⁓ come 2020 ⁓ came and group ⁓ went to summer without vacation Bible school money. And so they decided to get rid of all their books. And my book came back to me. And when it did, I said, good, I'll just publish it. And I read it after 20.
almost 25 years and I said I don't do all this stuff anymore. I do a whole lot more and I do a lot of this stuff differently and so I couldn't release it because it you know if you hadn't learned anything in 25 years shame on you and so I had to rewrite it into this book which is the new improved
better version of this book. So, you know, the answer to that question, ⁓ it took two books to answer it. And basically, ⁓ it all starts with leadership from the inside out. ⁓ And to me, ⁓ if I point my finger at somebody else, I can never forget there's three more fingers looking back at me.
The greatest thing, whatever you want a leader to do, just identify those things. Write those down. You know, I used to tell folks, whatever you want children to do when they grow up after being in your ministry, write those things down. If you want to be a soul winner, write that down. you want to be a prayer warrior, write that down. If you want to be full of the Spirit, if you want to be fluid in the gifts, whatever you want them to do. If you want them to have generous heart.
Write that down and now you become all those things and you put others before them who are all those things and That's what discipleship is Finding folks that are Christ-like in an area and letting that Christ likeness rub off and so to me leadership The best example to or the best definition to me is not out of a Maxwell book. It's just being an example
⁓ And what do we want to be an example of? It all starts, like you said, with who you are. ⁓ know, leadership is not just what you do. ⁓ It's the example you set because of the things you do. And so, ⁓ you know, that I would say if you really want to grow in your leadership,
⁓ You know, this is a great place to start. Authentic Leadership at Last. This is also the only book that I have an audio book on. you know, this is, ⁓ that was a cool thing to do. ⁓ Because there are so many people that are listening rather than reading. ⁓ so, you know, that's a great place to start.
If you're going to be a good leader, always starts with you. know, Jethro, Mr. Ryan Frank says, I can't teach anything without mentioning Jethro Moses. But there's a lot of truth to that. But, know, Jethro, his name meant excellence, but he didn't start out being excellent. When we first see him, his name wasn't Jethro.
It was rule. He was a friend of God. ⁓ And then he turned into excellence. ⁓ And if you want to be excellent, the first thing is to be God's friend. That's what I've learned from the story in Jethro. And, you know, work on your friendship with God and start taking on His character in nature. And that's where the excellence comes from. And when excellence talked to Moses, first thing he said was,
You handle the hard things. He didn't tell him to play more golf. didn't tell him to go play pickleball. He said, you handle the hard things. And then you find captains of 10, 50, 100, 500, 1000 who can handle these other things. You teach them what the word says and how you want them to do it and then allow them to help you.
Uh, he didn't tell him how to, um, you know, tell the difference between the captain of 10 and the captain of 50 and all the other things. But I found just start everybody small. And if they knock it out of the park, give them more. If they don't move them back. And, um, you know, that's the hard thing because once you promote somebody, um, they don't like to go back. So I always try and tell people it's kind of like checkers.
or chest, or I take my hand off, I'm going to move, I might move you back. But, ⁓ you know, again, ⁓ the greatest place to start is with yourself. And so I highly check that out. And, you know, that'll be a blessing to you.
KIDMIN U Team (32:16)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and I would second that too. That's a book I read, we actually, I think that was what we went through in our coaching cohort at the time. And really good read. I love that it was specifically geared for people who are in the trenches, you know, so it's not just, you know, talking about your faith, it's talking about your faith in the context of also carrying the responsibilities that you have as a minister. Highly recommend that we'll make sure to put that in the show notes. If you're looking for a great place to start, I would double down on that.
Jim Wideman (32:24)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (32:48)
Now I want to get your thoughts on something because a mentor of mine, he shared something recently, we were having a conversation and we're talking about a specific situation that kind of came up and this specific mentor has done a lot in the ministry space. I he runs an organization that plants churches. so every year there are a ton of new pastors, new churches that he's seeing come through. And he said something to me that was jarring, like it actually caught me off guard, but he said, you know, I'm seeing
Jim Wideman (33:07)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (33:17)
a younger generation of pastors come into the ministry and he's talking about lead pastors, by the way, not necessarily kids, but he's saying, I'm seeing a younger generation of pastors come through who are more talented than ever. I mean, they're great communicators. They're great in so many ways, but they often aren't prioritizing pastoral care. Like the new generation of leaders doesn't really see it as a core part of their job. Whereas even like
Not long ago when I got started in ministry, I think like that was a very real thing. Do you do hospital visits? Do you go like out to dinner with people? You know, it wasn't just, you know, the tasks that you do, it was a care component. And as soon as he said it, I started kind of thinking through my own, ⁓ you know, things I've noticed and whatnot. And I started to see a little bit of a trend. I'm curious for you, cause you interact with a lot of people, both lead pastors and other roles in the church.
Jim Wideman (33:47)
Yeah. Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (34:11)
Is this a trend you're seeing and if so, what are your thoughts on all that?
Jim Wideman (34:15)
Well, I think that sometimes people forget that ministry looks a whole lot like work. And I don't know why, if it's because of our schools and different things. We've had this green room mentality of, you know, CEO world or something.
All I know to do is go back to the Word. When I became a grandparent, first thing I did was say, all right, what's the first time grandparents or children's children is mentioned in the Bible. So I went to Deuteronomy 4 and found out what is the role of a grandparent. ⁓ It's just like anything else. And the best New Testament word I know for what we do as ministers, and especially in the children's
next-gen ⁓ student space is we're shepherds. ⁓ And 1st Peter 5 says, be shepherds in God's flock that is under your care, serving as an overseer. So the three job descriptions of a shepherd or an under shepherd, and again, fivefold ministry gifts. ⁓ There's the apostle that's set out from the rest of the hand, prophet, points things out to the body of Christ.
The evangelist sticks out and I added this part. also the finger that offends people. Then you got the pastor. That's the ring finger. He's married to the church. And that's where we come in as staff members. We are either pastoring or helping a pastor. And so then there's the teacher's gifts. That's the only finger that'll fit me here. That's what the teacher's gifts does.
KIDMIN U Team (35:51)
You
Jim Wideman (36:14)
Fivefold ministry gift to prepare God's people for works of service so the body of Christ will be built up. again, ⁓ our job is to prepare God's people. God's people has no age limit. God's people are little, God's people are big, God's people are teenagers. And so we are to prepare them. And we do that by being a shepherd. First of all, that's the feeding.
Most people, that's all they want to do as a minister. They just want to teach, they want to preach. ⁓ But there's a whole lot of other aspects to feeding. You go into any large feeding thing. Somebody's got to buy the food. Somebody's got to come up with the menus. You got to train the staff. You got to prepare it. ⁓ All the different things that goes into feeding. But that's not all that we do. That care component.
is listed in the Word. People don't care what you know until they know that you care. And you know, the Lord asked me a question back in the early 90s that rocked my world. He said, why should I give you? We were running 2,000 kids a weekend at this time at Church on the Move. And I went to this church in Virginia and they were checking in kids with little recipe box.
of index cards and all this. And the Lord said, you need to do a better job at tracking kids. And I began telling the Lord why that system would not work for 2,000 kids. And all of a sudden I heard in my spirit, why should I give you any more kids if you can't keep up with ones you already have? And immediately I felt the conviction of the Lord.
KIDMIN U Team (38:02)
Wow.
Jim Wideman (38:06)
And I said, Lord, I repent of my haughty attitude. If you'll show me what to do, how to take better care of people, ⁓ then I'll do it. And so that afternoon I got ⁓ on the airplane fly back to Tulsa. ⁓ You know, I'm lifetime gold because of all the miles and ⁓ I've traveled. And so. ⁓
I was in first class and I asked this guy, what do you do for a living? And he said, well, I work for Walmart. I said, what do you do for Walmart? He said, well, I'm over the distribution center. said, anything that's sold in a Walmart store anywhere in the United States comes through my warehouse. And I said, wait a minute, you track boxes for a living? And he said, yeah. I said, could you track people? He said, well, of course I could.
And I said, I don't know if you'd believe or not, but I told him what the Lord had told me. And he said, yeah, I go to Ronnie Floyd's church. He went to Springdale First Baptist and I'd spoke there before for their children's stuff. And so we started talking and he told me how to take an over-the-counter, this is in the nineties, barcode reader program and hook it up with FileMaker Pro.
and told me where to buy barcode scanners and how to do it, gave me his home number because this was before cell phones. And he said he was going call the owner of the scanner company and get me a discount. And we got it all set up. And I got to be the first church in America to have computerized check-in.
KIDMIN U Team (39:57)
You
Jim Wideman (39:58)
by doing that but it was all because of the prompt of the Spirit. And it was that care. you know, we have so many great tools. Planet Center is just, ⁓ man, it's the best. And all those modules do so much. But it's not just about safety. It's about follow-up and that care. And it blows people's minds. I worked at some big old churches in
when you call folks, hey, we notice you've been out the last two weeks. There's something going on. need some we can help with. And they're just blown away. You noticed it. And that care ⁓ is how you shut the back door. And that care is so important. And the last thing is overseeing. If you're doing all the work, you're not an overseer. And so all three of those is our job description. And, you know, ⁓ I think
The main thing is if I tell my staff if you're in a green room somewhere eating donuts, then you're not with people. And we're in the people business. And that is the important thing. And so I think that that has to be taught. You know, so many people aren't going to college.
They're not, or they, you know, they're just doing online things or they're not ⁓ being ⁓ mentored in real life under people. And so I've definitely, but I know for us, that's been one of the keys of our church is just caring about people. And all three of those phases are important.
KIDMIN U Team (41:53)
It's interesting that you bring up computerized check-in for starters. It's probably because we take it for granted. We probably assume it was around forever. Nobody's ever thought how to start. It's so cool thinking that you were kind of a pioneer in that. But I think the interesting thing is you brought up computerized check-in as a form of care. And I think for a lot of us, we think about it just to count, you know, like this is an attendance tool and an attendance is something I think maybe we're, we're
Jim Wideman (42:01)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (42:20)
Hesitant about you know, it's not about numbers. How did you see that? How did you connect it to care? What did that unlock for you?
Jim Wideman (42:25)
you
Well, that whole thing, why should I give you any more kids if you can't keep up with the ones you already have? And a big part of that is ⁓ just, you know, where are people? You know, it's crazy to me how ⁓ we hear statistics like, ⁓ you know, church attendance once a month or every other week is the new faithful. ⁓ Well, then
How are we staffing based on, I mean, one of the things we started doing is changing our staff from whenever you want to work to making sure that if every other week is the new ever week, then I'm gonna have a team, team A and team B or team one and team two, so that those kids connect to the same small group.
and study that attendance. And to me, I've always tracked attendance, not from a numbers standpoint, but like if somebody comes once a month and all of a sudden they're coming twice a month, there's spiritual growth that just happened in that family. Somebody said yes. And I want to know why they said yes or what's happening. All those things. And so that's a big part.
⁓ of that tracking. I celebrate when folks go from once a month, twice a month, three times a month. That might be a time to reach out to those workers, those parents to see, hey, you you're coming on a consistent basis. ⁓ We'd love to plug you in. ⁓ So that innovation and that ⁓ of what do the, what are the numbers telling?
And that's probably the greatest thing that any of us can do is just not just run a list, but learn what is that list telling us.
KIDMIN U Team (44:37)
So you mentioned a new dynamic that I think all of us are trying to figure out right now, which is that back in the day, people would come every week, we would consider them core people of our church. And now, you know, I used to think that was just a California thing, because that's where I do ministry, but it's starting to become normal everywhere. What shifts should we make as ministry leaders? Should we just accept that as a new reality? Are there things we can do to plan around that? Like, what would should we do differently?
Jim Wideman (44:53)
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (45:04)
with that in mind.
Jim Wideman (45:05)
Both and. ⁓ You know, the main thing is what stuff telling you. If it's a trend, ⁓ our competition is not other churches, it's entertainment. And I know just from the difference between my kids and my grands. My grands are so much busier than my kids were. I mean, they, you know, just a calendar.
to watch them play. They're in two different hockey leagues. the third guy, he hadn't even started yet. And when he comes, I'm gonna need an air traffic controller to figure out how to support your grandbabies. it's one of those things that parents are busy. And I think churches have to...
watch just adding more busy to the church schedule. We do so many less ⁓ services and activities for families than we did when I started Children's Ministry, number one, because families were just too busy. And now, if we plan anything, I want them to plan family time together.
because that's probably the biggest need more than another church service. And so I think ministers have to be sensitive to the time and the season that they find themselves ministering in. And, you know, having, you know, having started in the 70s through now working and still working in churches.
⁓ Kids are different. mean, you know, used to, you know, through programs like Royal Rangers and stuff, we'd say, hey, come sharpen this axe. And now, you know, they're making movies. We got their own YouTube channel. All these different things and so on. I think the main thing is to wake up, smell the millennium and just what's going on.
KIDMIN U Team (47:22)
Hmm
Jim Wideman (47:25)
being able to do that. ⁓ You know, I use AI a bit ⁓ and keeping up with stuff, looking at trends and research. I was telling somebody earlier, ⁓ know, to me, ⁓ Google is kind of like rubber cement and clip art now compared to some of the great tools and things.
KIDMIN U Team (47:54)
So it's interesting you bring up AI. I think there are a lot of ministry leaders who are very nervous when it comes to that. And in fact, I think if you even hint that you're using it as a resource, I think there are a lot of people who would say not only is that like maybe unethical, maybe it's immoral. What do you say to that? Like what? Yeah. What are your thoughts?
Jim Wideman (48:15)
I could remember when I was a young minister that using commentaries people thought you were cheating ⁓ because ⁓ you weren't doing the actual study. were listening to, you were seeing what Matthew Henry or Dave's topical Bible. ⁓ that was just so cutting edge. And ⁓ you know,
KIDMIN U Team (48:25)
Hahaha
Jim Wideman (48:45)
We can get all Amish and stay Amish, but ⁓ I like power tools. ⁓ I think that I look at calendars and things. ⁓ I remember when I could do everything I had going on in a month at a glance calendar. ⁓ And ⁓ now I need a cloud.
Because I'm using a phone and two iPads, I'm using a desktop and a laptop in my world. ⁓ I can't keep up with what I wrote in last. I think the key is to, ⁓ you have to, it's just like, where do you get your news?
I mean, ⁓ my wife and I, we laugh all the time because we get things on Instagram and Facebook that just aren't true. And it looks true. And ⁓ it looks like it really happened. And then we find out that coach didn't get fired or that person, this didn't happen to them. And ⁓ you just need to know your sources. And the thing about
⁓ When I'm doing research on chat GPT or anything else, ⁓ I ask where those sources came from and statistics. I'm ⁓ looking for research on grandparents in America or something, I want it to cite where it got that information. ⁓ again, you know,
I remember when they told students they couldn't use a calculator and now kids don't know how to call change back somewhere. And so, ⁓ you know, ⁓ the tool, all tools aren't bad. It's just if you do unethical stuff with anything.
KIDMIN U Team (50:38)
You
Jim Wideman (50:59)
⁓ You know, I hear stories about ⁓ preachers who are in somebody's sermon club and preach somebody else's sermons. ⁓ you know, it's one thing to quote them, it's another thing to rip them off. And, ⁓ you know.
I laughed, you you talked earlier on the call about the tape, back when I was doing the tape of the month club, there was a children's minister that did a seminar and it was just every session in the seminar was one of my tapes.
KIDMIN U Team (51:26)
You
Jim Wideman (51:39)
I didn't even change the name to protect the innocent. And you you can either get mad or say the highest form of flatteries when somebody copies something you're doing. you know, it's just one of those things that I went to a conference one time and
in the whole leadership section, it was all stuff that I had done. And I felt tremendously blessed, not mad. ⁓ But you know, the thing about ⁓ tools, one of the reason why young people still listen to me is because I don't try to tell them do things the way a baby boomer does it.
I want to learn from them. You one of questions I've asked young people and young leaders for years, what are five apps you're using that I need to know about? That you use on a regular basis. And I was telling somebody today, you know, I used to have an administrative assistant. Now I have three apps that do everything she did. And chatting GPT is one of
KIDMIN U Team (52:40)
Mm-hmm.
Jim Wideman (52:55)
And so, ⁓ you know, it's great for ⁓ checking your tone on emails and different, you know, ⁓ I'm not gonna let it do all the work, but I think anybody that doesn't take ⁓ advantage. When I started in ministry, ⁓
all my flyers and publications looked like ransom letters. ⁓ They were all ⁓ individual press on letters and a light table. And ⁓ we didn't even have copiers when I started in ministry. And so we were using these old, sticky green, ⁓
KIDMIN U Team (53:28)
Ha ha ha.
Jim Wideman (53:50)
ink stuff and it just looked horrible and I remember when the tape came out you and you could at get words in a sense still looked like a ransom letter but least it was a better ransom letter and then print shop came out on the Commodore 64 and even with the jaggies you could center everything and I thought oh this is wonderful
And then, you know, we were paying to get things typeset. And I went to the print shop where we were getting things typeset. And I saw the guy had a Mac. And so I said, rather than me pay somebody that has one of these square boxes, gonna get me one. And, you know, it's just, I have seen technology change. And, you know, one of the things that...
Like I said, ⁓ because I'm willing to change with it, it's helped me stay ⁓ relevant to younger leaders.
KIDMIN U Team (54:58)
Hmm. Yeah. I think as you said, it's a tool and I don't think tools are moral or immoral. It's how you use them. It's having good judgment, having integrity, all of that. You know, the way I think about it is it's like, you know, chat, GPT AI, it feels like somebody invented a tractor and then there are still people who like refuse to use it and they want to stick with their shovel. And it's like, you can dig a pit either way, but it's going to be so much faster, so much easier.
Jim Wideman (55:02)
Yeah.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (55:27)
You can get home to your lovely wife way quicker if you just use the tractor.
Jim Wideman (55:30)
I mean you can cut grass with a lawn mower, with just a regular lawn mower. But if you get a bigger yard, you need one that does tricks. One that pulls itself, one you grind. You get a bigger yard, you need a bush hog, and cows, and livestock. And it's just any kind of time-saving tool that's out there. I'm for it.
KIDMIN U Team (55:38)
Hmm.
Yeah, I mean to me maybe this is like different than what a lot of people would think but I feel like it's actually an act of stewardship if you use resources like that. Like that allows you actually to care for your people better. ⁓ I know people, you know, people might have criticism of it and I understand that but I think especially as ministry leaders, I think if we use judgment and how we use it and we discern and we check sources and ⁓ all that stuff, I don't think there's anything wrong. Okay, I want to ask you something because you
Jim Wideman (56:05)
Yeah.
Bye.
KIDMIN U Team (56:27)
You've been around for a while and you've probably hired lots of people specifically in kids ministry. And you've seen the hires that have been great. You've probably seen some hires didn't work the way that you hope they would. ⁓ How do you spot potential and what are you looking for when you're bringing somebody onto a kids ministry team?
Jim Wideman (56:33)
Yeah.
It's kind of funny. I hire a lot of people I coach because they're just like me. And my last four hires, I didn't have to tell them how I do ministry. They know how I do ministry. so that common language. But to me,
You know, I really try to raise up leaders ⁓ and hire from within. And I love hiring kids of the house and raising up those kids and putting them into ministry and seeing potential. And I've hired 10 staff this year.
and
Six have come from within. Four were people that I've coached.
You know, it's just like college football or any other kind of football. Whoever has the most depth at key positions is going to win championships. And so I try to build depth and I tell ⁓ leadership all the time that want to be in leadership. If you make yourself where you we can't live without you, I promise we won't. ⁓
And so you give people an opportunity and you raise them up and develop that depth. You say, how do you develop depth? Well, that's just real simple. You're 42 points ahead. Let the true freshman get some playing time. And so every third Sunday, I let my second string lead, lead worship. ⁓ Every fifth Sunday, I let that rookie get some reps.
We're 72 points ahead on this Sunday. So I'm gonna let it's not senior day I'm gonna let everybody get to play and you know, you can't send everybody to hell in one week. So just let ⁓ Let those folks get some reps learn how to do some things Coach them through it and the more they do it then you're ready to start that next service Send that other campus
because you're getting and hire your staff.
KIDMIN U Team (59:24)
Yeah, I love that. That is spoken like a true Alabama fan who's used to being at 42 points in the fourth quarter.
Jim Wideman (59:29)
Well, it's a process. It's
a process. Working the process. Here's the big one. Everybody wants a pill, but nobody's willing to work the process. And that's the key. Most people give me that secret pill that's going to cause me to do it. You know, every time...
I've ever lost weight and people said, how'd you do it? They don't want you to tell them, I've been eating right and working out.
They want, they want to mash the button somewhere and it just fell off, you know.
KIDMIN U Team (1:00:17)
I want to wrap up with this. I appreciate you taking the time. You've seen a lot of change over the years. You've seen different seasons of ministry, different trends, all of that. As you look ahead, especially with what's next in in kids ministry, what's around the corner? What should we keep our eyes on?
Jim Wideman (1:00:34)
Well, I think the main thing is we've got to get back. ⁓ We've we've got to. Get back to letting the Holy Spirit be the third person of the Godhead and not some weird stepbrother or cousin and ⁓ we know a lot about Father God. Kids know a lot about Jesus.
but we haven't been intentional to teach them how to use their helper in everyday life. And even in ministry, ⁓ one of the things that ⁓ I did with my own girls and now with my grand is teach, and with the kids in my ministry.
I want them to know how to hear the voice of God. John 10 is real. mean, ⁓ the Lord is our shepherd, where is sheep? His sheep know his voice. But when you ask most people in leadership, tell me how accurate.
you are in hearing the voice of God or how competent are you in your ability to hear the voice of God? There's something wrong. And so ⁓ I think that we've got to get back to not only teaching visually in a way that kids can retain. Listen, you can't live what you don't remember.
And so we've got to get back visually, but we also have to let them know when Holy Spirit's there, point that out. Point out the moving of the Spirit. Point out what he wants to do. And so I think that ⁓ if we're gonna see what we need to see, and I believe that's an end time revival, you know.
In the last days, God says, I'm gonna pour out my spirit upon all flesh. And the first group that's mentioned are sons and daughters. And so somewhere we've got to get back to the sensitivity of Holy Spirit. I think that in all the things that I'm seeing this year at the Orange.
conference which is now the church conference. It was amazing that when they said we're gonna get we're gonna put the bible back into the curriculum I place one nuts and you know ⁓ why wasn't it there to start with you know that's the question and somewhere we've got to get back to the word
And I think the main thing is making room for the Holy Spirit.
KIDMIN U Team (1:03:37)
Yeah, I see that trend starting to become more more popular in churches and I've gotten to experience it on the front end. I mean, we did a kids conference for the first time a couple years ago and I remember this is when I was on your coaching call and one of the things I was wrestling with is, hey, I want to set the tone for this in our kids ministry, but I haven't experienced a ton of this in my background. I grew up in a, it wasn't technically a Baptist church, but it was basically a Baptist church.
Jim Wideman (1:03:46)
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
KIDMIN U Team (1:04:07)
And so the idea of any type of spiritual gifts or hearing from the Holy Spirit was not normal. I would later find out, by the way, this is a total sidebar. I would later find out that my same pastor ⁓ privately would speak in tongues and he believed in all that stuff. He was just afraid of how the church would respond if we actually incorporated that in the church. And so that's a funny thing. But I remember talking to you and thinking, hey, who do you know who could be a speaker at our conference who could just really help?
Kickstart some of this and like introduce to our kids and so you pointed me towards Wes Pickering and Wes ended up speaking and it was incredible I mean people are still talking about what the Lord did there and it really started with a guy like him setting the stage and letting kids know There's no junior Holy Spirit like let's talk about what it looks like to pray and to like believe that God can show up
Jim Wideman (1:04:48)
Yeah.
Yeah, if
Joe's an old missionary
KIDMIN U Team (1:05:00)
There's a wild testimony there that, ⁓ honestly is something I'll take with me the rest of my life, but we had a gal at that conference and her only job, she was the photographer for our kids conference. So that's all she did for the weekend, you know? And, and she later told me, she was like, you know, I was like excited and disappointed to have that role. Cause she's like, on one hand, I love what I do and getting to be a part of it, but it means that I can't attend the main conference. can't.
receive, you know, whatever. And it was one of our sessions and we were talking about the power of the Holy Spirit and Wes just opened it up and he just asked, there anybody here who has a health thing going on that they've been thinking is too big for God? There's no way any anything could happen with it. And like, she paused for a little bit because she's like, I'm not one of the kids, like, should I raise my hand? And then she ended up like doing it. And she came up to the front and she shared that she was born with one leg that was longer than the other.
which sounds like a very small thing, but it actually had led to lots of complications throughout her life. And she'd seen different medical professionals. There's nothing they could really do. And so Wes gathered the kids around and they prayed for her. And actually, I love the way he did this too, because Wes could have easily been the one praying, but instead he chose one of the kids and he said, is there anybody who'd be willing to pray this prayer? So a little girl raised her hand and he said, I want you to repeat after me like, Lord, short leg grow.
And that's all she said. like literally in real time in the middle of this huddle surrounded by kids, her leg grew like to be the same size as the other leg. And it's so funny because we had multiple cameras in the room, like catching so much of it, but like no angle actually got that. We can see right outside the huddle. We could see the kids react. It's almost like the Lord didn't want to use it for PR. It was just a moment for those kids to see God flex a little bit and realize he is real. He is present. And
I know there are some people listening here who still think that's crazy and that's woo woo and maybe even we shouldn't have done that in a conference setting, whatever with kids. We actually got a lot of flack for that by the way. ⁓ Our host venue almost didn't want us back.
Jim Wideman (1:07:06)
Well, crazy
thing is, you know, when the Pharisees saw the whole Palm Sunday thing, ⁓ the Pharisees got mad not because of the healings and the miracles and all the things that Jesus did. When they saw the children praising God, saying, Hosanna.
That's what got them upset because they knew that what those children experienced, ⁓ you know, you'd never take that away from them. And what those children experienced in that meeting, that made the devil mad because there's no telling those kids that didn't happen because they all saw it. And the longest they lived, know there's nothing too hard for Jesus.
KIDMIN U Team (1:07:58)
Yeah, it was a marking moment.
Yeah, it was incredible. It's something we still talk about to this day and it really set the stage for like future moments like that. ⁓ You know, coming out of that. Well, Jim, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This was a treat for me.
Jim Wideman (1:08:17)
Hey, thanks for letting
me. I'm honored to be the first yes.
KIDMIN U Team (1:08:21)
Oh come on, I love your humility, but you are a legend. You are the GOAT in kids ministry.
Jim Wideman (1:08:24)
No, no, no. Let
me tell you, every time I have an opportunity to do something, I don't take it for granted. ⁓ To me, I'm so thankful that I get to do it, that the Lord would consider me ⁓ worthy because, you know, I want to end with this. We're all just a pair of overalls that the Holy Spirit wants to put on and use.
Because we're lifeless and limp and nothing without him. ⁓ you don't expect to be asked. Every time somebody ⁓ remembers, there's this old guy that done a lot of stuff in the past. when you go to the grocery store, you got canned fruit.
You got fresh fruit and you have frozen fruit. And the can and the frozen aren't bad, but it isn't near as good as fresh. And it dawned on me one time when I was at the store, I was passing by the frozen food section and the Lord said, this is okay, but it's fruit from another season. And I've had a lot of fruit from other seasons.
But I really want to produce fruit in this season. According to the word, it says I'll be green in old age, not riding around in a Winnebago and getting stale. But it's one of those things that I want to produce fruit in this season. And that's why staying sharp and learning every day and using the tools of this decade.
daring to communicate and learn from every generation. This is the first time, Jeremy, that there's five different generations working in the workplace at the same time. And I think we're better together. I don't want younger people working like me. I want to learn the best things from each generation so that we can use... ⁓
you know, use the best of everybody to accomplish great things.
KIDMIN U Team (1:10:48)
Yeah, what a way to wrap it up. Hey Jim, if there are people who want to know more about you, what you're up to, what you got going on, where would you point them?
Jim Wideman (1:10:56)
Yeah, JimWildman.com and then also NextGen LeaderLab. That's my legacy site. ⁓ so those two places are pretty much all things Jim Wideman and any way that I can help anybody I'd love to.
KIDMIN U Team (1:11:15)
Yeah, that's incredible. OK, well, thank you for coming on the show. If you guys are listening, tuning in, thank you for joining us. We really appreciate you being here. We'll see you next time.
